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Friday, December 9, 2011

WOW!!! The Darger's "Love Times Three"

Joe Darger made our day awhile back by tweeting about us to Kody Brown. We have not spent a great deal of time on the Darger's, seems that they were a blander version of the Brown's, just looking for their day in the sun.  (or profits $$) 

But a little bird told us that the Darger's snooze-fest of a book has possibly a lie in it. More importantly, a BIG one.  Which made our ears perk up like a cat that hears tuna. 

I have NOT read the book. After having everyone I know tell me that it would work better than an Ambien to put me to sleep, why would I bother? So, friends, you must put this rumor to rest for me. 

Here's what we were told:

There is a LIE in the book "Love Times Three"
Joe Darger's third wife was the former wife of Dennis Matthews, a key figure in the AUB Virginia Hill matter.

 In the book "Love Times Three," Joe Darger claims that his wife Valerie was the former polygamous wife of a man named Donald who had a lot of gambling debts. 

That's not true, according to our sources. 

Actually the third Darger wife Valerie was the former polygamous wife of the infamous Dennis Matthews of the AUB polygamy group. Dennis stole money from Virginia Hill to the tune of over 1 million dollars, then forced his wives to live in trailers with no heat and no light and they had to dumpster dive in order to eat while he scrounged to pay Virginia Hill off...

Allegedly, Valerie became "unsealed" from Dennis when Dennis failed to support his wives. Dennis Matthews was almost charged with criminal neglect for leaving his abandoned wives in cold trailers.

Joe Darger, would you want to clarify this for us?

Unfamiliar with the Virginia Hill Case? Christine's Uncle Owen Allred is the midst of the case.
Read: http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/curious-case-of-virginia-hill-vs.html


  1. I am so disappointed in the Dargers. I thought they were a better version of the Browns. More together. Nothing together about blatently lying, JOE. Joe made a comment about this blog on twitter and said WOW, we say it right back to you Joe. EVERYONE re-TWEET THIS!

    She will cry wolf like Taylor.

  2. I read the book.
    They said she was married to a Donald, but didn't indicate this was a name hidden.

    Interesting. Knocks them right off the "Best of the Poligs" tree, er, wreath, doesn't it.

  3. Dang.
    Why lie? Just be upfront about it. Geeze.

  4. i've made this comment several times before when peeps kept raving about how the Dargers would be such a much better plyg role model family than the Browns for a reality show.

    But i'll say it again now. "The Browns were initially liked, too, until all the crap truths started coming out due to public exposure. If the Dargers had a show, the same would happen and they likewise, would fall out of favor."

    Seems like that's happening now to the Dargers without the benefit of a "reality" show. ;')

    Their book is just the tip of the iceberg which they are in complete control of re:exposure. Remember the question Troy asked them at their signing that they didn't answer and quickly moved on to another subject? They're no different than the Browns in evasive answers.

  5. I also asked the Dargers if they were affiliated with the AUB. Joe said no. Silly, I already know that the Darger family has been affiliated with the AUB for decades. If this isn't a kind of affiliation, what is?

    I didn't ask Joe if he recognized the authority of the AUB. Independent Mormon fundamentalists have anything but a systematic way of following Mormon priesthood authority.

  6. I'd been rewatching Big Love over the past few weeks. I have learned a lot about the various polygamous Mormon sect since the first time I watched Big Love, and WOW, the creators and writers of the show sure have done their research well! Truth IS actually stranger than fiction! And I now appreciate the show much more, since I understand where a lot of the details are coming from: like the money stolen from a dying woman, the money stored in cans, the inbreeding but not via sex, etc etc. Does anyone know if the creators of the show were (ex)Mormons?

  7. I would have respected them more for putting that truth upfront. Who cares who her ex husband was, she didn't help him and she was treated awful. Makes for a more sympathetic sw.

    Dear Dargers you're doing it wrong.

  8. @ Religulous I think Dustin Lance Black was involved in writing during the first season-but he was regular LDS, not FLDS.

  9. Yes, the book is boring, but go ahead and read it. There is much to read 'between the lines'. Much is glossed over such as the child abuse investigation they had going on and who knew who, etc...and how it suddenly was stopped (not saying they were guilty just staying interesting the who knew who part and which investigator was polyg, etc..) Read the chapters written by the kids. One line you could easily miss that says one of Val's kids has never lived with the Dargers, he lives with the bio father. That is glossed over, IMO. Lots of things like that, just read it carefully and you'll see they try to portray themselves as the Brady Bunch of polygs and they are not. Why else would they turn down a tv show? They are only somewhat smarter than the Browns. I also find it interesting how much twittering the two families do back/forth-it sounds to me like they've known each other for a very long time, not just through this media circus.

  10. RE: Big Love...one of the exec.producers of show was Tom Hanks. I find it interesting that his wife, actress Rita Wilson, sends tweets to the SWs. Mostly sticking up for them when someone has trashed their lifestyle. Wish I could remember them/what month, etc..I thought it was odd until I remembered the show and the connection.

  11. Yes they know each other very well through the Principle Rights Coalition (a happy band of all the polygamist sects - incestuous Kingstons included). Also they know each other through the Safety Net mob. Christine has spoken at Safety Net polygamy conferences, calling for changes in the laws about polygamy, and Joe Darger is a major player in these organizations too. They all want the law to change in their favor and they are using the media to brainwash the unsuspecting and sometimes bamboozled public, in an effort to get their backing for their agenda. We should rename the PRC the PRCC - Principle Rights CRIME coalition.

  12. @BARGAIN BABE, you bet your sweet bippy I was bleeding mad at the killing of dogs on the compound at the order of the masturbating Jeffs in jail. They need to go to a back hole, not a planet. The light was sucked out of these crazy interbred zombies long ago.

    The corgi and mastiff on this site I'm sure agree with me.

  13. What are you talking about? Seems off topic. Bargain babe didn't say anything about this. Am I missing something?

  14. To Border Collie -

    If anyone told me to kill my dogs, or get rid of them, they would be out of my life with a possible restraining order against them. If this doesn't wake people up to the cult of Jeffs and polygamy, I honestly don't know what will.

    {side note - in the previews of the new show about the Dearborn Muslims, the new convert is told by his new wife to get rid of his old, beloved, beagle. Did she not know she was marrying a man with a dog? If he caves, that's it, the show is over for me.}

  15. WHAT do dogs have to do with the Dargers? Once again, some take a subject and try to make it their own. #notcool

  16. I went to the Darger site and thought it was interesting on Joe's profile page that he states that one of his "likes" along with his sports hobbies, is * spending time alone *...?/!!

    Interesting to read that from a plyg husband.
    Kind of an oxymoron.

    In general, their site reads like a well-oiled press event.
    Everyone is just so happy and so busy and just so proud to be "them."

  17. To the Brown's and Darger's:

    You know the saying "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

    All this media attention is already exposing the abuses inherent in polygamy and this "principle" (and hopefully these women/children will begin to recognize that they ARE being abused psychologically). Keep going AUB etc. people - you may just be walking right into the light of understanding.

  18. I have not read the book. Can anyone else expand upon what was said about the ex-husband?

    Yes, I agree the difference with the Dargers Vs the Browns are just a little mixture called common sense and PR.

    Why lie? If that's a lie, what else is? why read the book, who knows if it's fact or fiction?

  19. Started digging and found this. Can anyone confirm her maiden name as Lavery?

    "Pleasant Valley, the home of Dennis Matthews, was about sixteen miles due west just inside the Nevada border. All the kids in Snake Valley, including the kids from Pleasant Valley, were bused to the West Deseret School that was about three miles from Greenhaven. At Boy Scout meetings the Matthews’ kids interacted with the Green kids.

    Tom and Dennis Matthews were converted to Mormon Fundamentalism about the same time and had attended the same underground, cottage proselyting sessions. Tom said that he and Dennis discussed what polygamous group they should attempt to join. Tom chose the Peterson Group (The Righteous Branch), a small offshoot of the Allred Group (AUB). According to Tom, Matthews chose the Allred Group because that’s where most of the available girls could be found. Tom became an apostle in the Peterson Group, and Matthews married a daughter of Ormand Lavery, one of Owen’s apostles."

  20. INTERESTING. I put some of above as a question to Troy.
    Now I am going to have to read the book.
    Sadly, any book labeled non fiction should be non fiction and called out otherwise. It's not ethical.

  21. Info came from the following site if anyone wants to read more:


  22. Interesting site with many articles about Big Love and then further down, interviews, comments, etc., about the Brown family.


  23. I think Vicki and Valerie come from the Kelsch family. Dennis Matthews had about 5 wives, most of whom left him. One of those was a Lavery. Never heard anything about the gambling debts that Valerie mentions. I thought they left because he got himself in hot water over the stolen Virginia Hill money, but I could be wrong.

  24. For heather and anon 5:43, the posts changes so quick sometimes that you have to answer on another thread, so I did, and specifically to Bargain Babe, if can read.

  25. Anon 5:43 you need not be pretentious and nasty. Uncool.

  26. I knew what you were referencing Border Collie! We're on the same page. :)

    Lesbian4Janelle, I liked your line "Dear Dargers, You're doing it wrong." lol

  27. For those who haven't read the book...I'm looking at it now again. Joe has written a disclaimer in beg that states 'we have withheld names of some individuals to protect their privacy'. Aha! So that's how they get around LYING. Re: Valerie. Book is written in style that each person writes chapter, it swtiches around. Chapter 3 is Valerie's "losing Faith". Val states she was 17 yrs old when she met the 44 yr old 'Donald'. She was FDLS, he was AUB. She married him at 18 yrs old. She was his 5th wife. He had 4 wives and 8 kids at that time. They lived in Mapleton, UT and he claimed to be a fireworks salesman. Shortly after, he moved all the wives to Pleasant Valley, Nevada in a remote area into trailors with no heat, no running water. He left for weeks at a time and was discovered to be a compulsive gambler. The wives claim to have gone to Owen Allred of AUB for help but things didn't get better and 'Donald's' wifes began to leave one by one. Valerie stuck it out for 12 years and 5 kids later. She left him and later asked AUB for a release (aka divorce) and was granted this. Her son Sam went to live with "Donald" when he was 14 yrs old, he does not live with the Darger family.
    In Joe's last chapter of the book he goes on and on and on about Princiiple Voices and his being the chairman of Principle Rights Coalition since 2007. He also mentions 'poor Kody Brown and his four wives' that have been investigated since they went public on a reality tv show.

  28. BC, I wholeheartedly agree with you!!! That is pure evil, and if I weren't such a big wussy dog, I'd do something about it. Fortunately, my sidekick mini-doxie is fierce enough for the both of us. My owner/mom can't believe this stuff w the jeffs followers is able to exist in America in 2011.

  29. @Anon 9:05 pm - I have a feeling that "Donald" is really Dennis Matthews as previously stated in the beginning post.

  30. Just located on a plyg site written by Brooke Adams -

    "Valerie Kelsch, an independent Fundamentalist Mormon and plural wife: ”It was really frustrating to listen to her allegations of abuse [being inherent in polygamous homes] when we know it’s simply not true.” She also said Hamilton’s criticism of the Safety Net committee was misguided and failed to recognize its value in getting fundamentalists comfortable with government agencies."

  31. http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=52282845

    15 polygamists jailed in the 1940's.

  32. Border Collie- I understood & agree!

    As far as the Dargers and Browns...keep pimping yourselves out guys because we are all watching while your twisted tales start unraveling. Legalize polygamy Kody??? Hmmmm-I think not.

  33. http://www.newspaperarchive.com/SiteMap/FreePdfPreview.aspx?img=112994565

    1955 article regarding the 'drive against polygamy"


    Look at the names on this link - Christine Brown, AUB!!!

    Walton, you asked at the bottom of the other thread # 57 who Linda Kelsh is. l know her name to be spelled Kelsch. She is a daughter of Louis Kelsch who was one of the original members of the Council of Friends (precursor to the Priesthood Council) with Lorin C. Woolley, John Y. Barlow, J. Leslie Broadbent, Joseph W. Musser, Charles Zitting and LeGrand Woolley.

    This was the Priesthood Council of Fundamentalist Mormons formed in the early 1900s to keep the principle of plural marriage alive.

    Linda Kelsch ran for the Utah State Legislature 4-5 years ago representing her Park City, Utah community. Thank god she lost the race.

    It is my understanding that Linda was one of the 4 original founders of the pro-polygamy group, Principle Voices of Polygamy, along with Mary Batchelor, Anne Wilde and Marianne Watson.

    I think over time, Linda and Marianne went by the wayside in that group and Anne and Mary took it over.

    I am not sure if or how she is related to Vicki Kelsh who has out this new book:
    Love Times Three: Our True Story of a Polygamous Marriage
    by Alina Darger, Joe Darger, Valerie Kelsh, Vicki Kelsh

    Maybe Vicki just modified the spelling of her surname, or it is spelled wrong on the link you provided on the other discussion thread.

    Perhaps Valerie and Vicki are Linda’s daughters because their ages would be right. But maybe they aren’t related at all.

    I do know that when John Y. Barlow started his United Order BS and the Council of Friends had their first slit (with Joseph Musser siding with Rulon Allred and the AUB group) and John Y. Barlow and Charles Zitting siding with today’s FLDS group, that Louis Kelsch said to hell with all of them and became an Independent polygamist.

    OK, so that is the end of our Mormon Fundy history lesson for tonight.

    Anonymous said this on July 7, 2011 at 12:15 AM

  34. "Valerie Kelsch, an independent Fundamentalist Mormon and plural wife: ”It was really frustrating to listen to her allegations of abuse [being inherent in polygamous homes] when we know it’s simply not true.” She also said Hamilton’s criticism of the Safety Net committee was misguided and failed to recognize its value in getting fundamentalists comfortable with government agencies."

    What a riot !

    Valerie Kelsch - Darger has got to be kidding. She lived in an abusive situation with Dennis Matthews for over a decade, while he robbed Virginia Hill - then she tried to cover it up in the book by claiming that she was in an abusive "marriage" with a gambler named "Donald."

  35. What a Maroon said:
    "Perhaps Valerie and Vicki are Linda’s daughters because their ages would be right. But maybe they aren’t related at all."

    Judging from everything that has been uncovered and everything we know about Mormon polygamous groups, I think it's pretty safe to assume they ARE indeed related! ALL mormon polygamists, not the recent converts, but the ones who claim polygamy in their families going back generations are related!

  36. THis was posted on the FLDS TExas website

    "I found out today that Linda Kelsch is actually the aunt of Vicki and Valerie Kelsh; Linda’s brother is their father. Linda was a Barlow who married a Kelsch. I was told the different spelling of the surname by Vicki and Valerie is to protect the rest of the Kelsch clan. Like removing the “c” really makes any difference!
    Anonymous said this on July 8, 2011 at 6:02 PM"

  37. Dear SW Bloggers - After reading all of the above comments and going over to Cosmo's site and reading his comments, I would say that the proverbial "poo" has hit the fan regarding the truth of the Darger's. Do they read this site? Does anyone know if they are aware of the "research" going on?

    Great job everyone. Keep it real!

  38. Can someone put in a "report" of sorts- maybe freeand clear, of what we have gleened from this?

    who's who's aunt, father, etc.?

  39. As I stated before, I have not read the book. However, one quick google took me TO the book, where it states Alina, Vicki, and Valerie's grandfather Louis Alma Kelsch was arrested in the infamous 1945 raid.

    Now, that pretty well sums up that Alina is Valerie and Vicki's relation, and that they are Kelsch. I don't feel that they were hiding any facts there, with the exception that it might not be spelled out - or maybe it was.

    If you have read the book, please fill in for us what was explained about their relationships.

  40. They put a disclaimer in the beginning of the book stating some names were changed to "protect their privacy" as stated before.

    However, if you look, the only ones they are "protecting" are themselves!

  41. Here's ANOTHER famous Joe Darger whose plyg father is 60 year old John Darger. I'm wondering if John is Joe Darger's (Love Times Three) older brother?


  42. wth?
    all 3 of the darger wives are related? the one that isn't a twin is a cousin?

  43. I read the book, and Valerie specifically mentions in her chapter that "Donald" is a pseudonym. I never got the impression that it was his real name, and I assumed all along that she was trying to protect some of her children's father's privacy.

  44. Seems like the only thing Valerie was protecting was herself. If she REALLY was concerned about her children's father's privacy, or her children's she would not of written the book.

    Look, they want publicity and not what comes with it. Simple.

  45. It seems to me that these polygamists are way too sheltered from society. They seem to think they can come out and sell you what they want to say, no questions asked. That's ot how America works. By stepping out and wanting the publicity, the talk shows, the book money- you need to realize, truth will follow and prevail. You can't leave "some" parts out. Protecting the ex? Please, she didn't mind saying what AWFUL conditions she had then, she didn't mind making him sound TERRIBLE, so that is NOT who she was protecting. She's protectig herself, and the fact she was knee deep in some of his shit. IMO.

  46. What tickles me is how Joe Darger goes out of his way to act like he is buddies with Kody, all the while.... wantig to replace them as "America's Poligs" - he may fool Kody, but not me.
    At the the Brown's will say up front they are flawed. The Darger's act like they are perfect.

  47. If you want to know just how pushy and active Joe Darger is in wanting the polygamy laws changed, read the November 4th 2010 Safety Net Meeting minutes. Safety Net is now all about promoting the pro polygamy agenda NOT helping people to leave. Too bad some of that wasted money can't be given to the people who REALLY do something - like Shield and Refuge, and Holding out HELP. They are working themselves into the ground to help all the people who are leaving and have to rely on whatever money caring people send their way. Hope Safety Net gets axed when Mark Shurtleff leaves office as AG of Utah

    Go here for the minutes of the meeting

  48. http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/images/petition.pdf

    Interesting reading of all the signatures: Brown, Kelsch, Barlow, Darger, etc., etc.

  49. ^^wow. so what we have on that petition is a TON of plygs defending warren jeffs' group. For as much as they (brown/darger/kelsch) like to get on tv and books and say "We are not like Jeffs!" :oh no, not at all!"..even Robyn w/ the fake tears "I think he should rot in hell. -sniff- I really do." Yet they went and signed this crap wanting the kids returned to the abuse!!


  50. Okay I have to stop reading the petition and the comments. These people are out of their effing minds.

    One person just said that texas state has a higher rate of teen pregnancy than the FLDS compound. SO. Dumbass. the problem is that the FLDS teens are pregnant by MEN, 40, 50 yr old MEN. Not their little high school boyfriend. Big difference.

    Oh my word. All these petition comments. LOTS from Centennial Park, AZ. Also, lots of people that can't spell and clearly weren't educated past 6th grade.

    One last point---all the stupid petition signers... crying over abuse that didn't happen and boo hoo. Wonder what they say now? Surely after hearing Warren's sex tapes with the little girls the petition commenters are having to eat their words.

    I have a very low asshole tolerance today.

  51. A "Lacey Darger" commented on the petition. She's underage. Pretty sure her signature doesn't count. *eyeroll*

    Is she one of the Darger (love times three) kids? Here is what she said, copied and pasted...long:
    946. Lacey Darger Herriman, UT I am growing up in a polygomous family. I am 14 yrs old. I
    go to a public school. I have lots of friends. My family (and
    all that I know that are polygomous) won't let their kids get
    married until they are 18 yrs old. There is no abuse in any
    of the families. There aren't any selected marriages, either.
    The daughters and sons choose who they want to date,
    marry, have kids with. So why do people think that
    polygomous families are the only kinds of families that
    have abuse in their families? There is more abuse in all of
    the monogomous families than there are in polygomous
    families! More children die of abuse in monogomous
    families, or families that are living with their boyfriends, or
    girlfriends, or step-parents, with children in the household!
    So why doesn't the Texas government give the children
    back to their parents, and leave them alone? Oh. I forgot.
    Because of this "Sarah Someone" that called in because of
    abuse and rape. So why don't they look for this girl that
    has the broken ribs? Just like I thought. It's because she
    doesn't exist, and whoever called in, saying that they were
    part of the FLDS Church, was just someone that wanted to
    get rid of polygomous families and sects, just because they
    are scared. Yes, scared. They don't know us, they don't
    know any of us. What the world thinks of us is because of
    things that they heard from the media. Guess what! The
    media doesn't know everything! People like to think it,
    because they know a lot, but they don't know it all! They
    get their stories from rumors and other stupid things like
    that! So why is the Texas government saying that the
    fathers are abusing their wives and children? Why don't
    they ask the children? Examine their arms, faces, legs?
    They don't wear makeup! They can't hide it! Take a look at
    some of the pictures that have been taken of the mothers!
    They look like they have been treated well! Do they look
    like they are mentally retarded? They talk normal. They
    were crying over the loss of their children! CRYING!!!!!!! If
    they didn't love their children, then why would they be
    crying? Because they don't get to abuse them, whether it is
    physically, mentally, or emotionally? Taking the children
    away, now THERE is something that will scar the
    husbands, wives, and children! It could be physically,
    mentally, emotionally. My guess is every single one of the
    afore mentioned will be scarred in one way, shape, or
    form. Would all the parents out there like this to happen to
    them? Have their children taken from them for no apparent
    reason, but that sexual abuse and other types of abuse are
    "suspected" of being in tow with polygamy? Yeah, right!
    Why don't the Texas police stop going after religious
    groups that they have NO IDEA AT ALL what is going on
    in, and go after murdurers, rapists, theives, instead of
    going after probably some of THE MOST INNOCENT
    (continues on next page)
    Page 114 - Signature 946
    Name From Comments
    946. Lacey Darger Herriman, UT (continued from previous page)
    people in the world? Actually, it isn't all about only the
    Texas police, not in this day and age. Oh, no. This has
    everything to do with police all over the world. But right
    now, until something like this happens to other people in
    other places, let's just focus on Texas, shall we? The
    children need to be back with their parents, and hopefully
    be able to get back to their lives, like normal. (continued)

  52. (continued) Remember
    the Raid of '53? Yeah. I know from experience, or rather,
    my grandma knows from experience, being taken from
    your parents like this can really inflict fears and phobias no
    one knows could be real! Jumping at the sound of a siren,
    sleeping with the light on. Shame on all those that support
    the children being taken and put into foster homes! Shame
    shame! This is all pathetic. In my opinion, the supporters of
    the Texas government are just as bad as the people that
    went into the homes of the families and tore them apart. If
    the Lord doesn't like what is happening in our polygomous
    families, let him strike us all down with lightning, kay? Kay.
    Don't let the Texas government/CPS think that they are His
    Mightyness! Because they sure as #311 are not even
    close! So give the children back, NOW!!!!!!!!!

  53. ick, ick, ICK!! what a small bubble these people live in.

  54. Email received from John Llewelyn - Please post and consider watching/supporting. The TRUTH will prevail -

    "Yes, she was a plural wife and left him with three others. On Jan 12th I will be on Doris Hansen's tv show, What Love Is This, reviewing the book, Love Times Three, at which time I will give details of her marriage to Dennis. I will also be posing on my blog my review on that same date. Thanks for checking out my blog. If you have any question feel free to email me. John"

  55. FYI -

    "John Llewellyn, a retired sheriff's lieutenant, has extensive experience with polygamy as a criminal investigator and later as a convert to the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB), the second largest Mormon polygamous sect in the United States. After seeing the corruption and self serving behavior in the sect, Mr. Llewellyn left the group no longer believing in it's precepts. Since leaving the AUB John Llewellyn has become an outspoken critic of the organized polygamous sects. Llewellyn has written four books about polygamy with another soon to be published"


  56. http://www.whatloveisthis.tv/

  57. What a Maroon!.... Thanks for the links. i went and read several articles on his blog that were most interesting. read the one last year re:his foretelling of what would happen to the Browns w/public exposure. So right!

    I found this link to and it's a good read with a lot of great info. Interesting that he was mainstream Mormon who joined the AUB (happens alot when mainstreams learn their real history. they either leave completely or go back to live the Joseph Smith version.)

    Anyway, he's quite a character and a force to be reckoned with for sure. Can't wait to hear him on Doris's show. Thanks again!

    Here's the link with some great info:


  58. Glad to help. Internet sleuthing is my specialty.