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Tuesday, December 25, 2012

Discussion Page 2 S05E07 "Polygamist Pilgrimage from the Past" and Brown Genealogy

ADDED BELOW - "OBEY VIDEO CLIP"
There are more twists and turns in All the BROWN tree than in my spanx on a good day. I have over 600 pages of the twisted tree. Here is the  simplest form of history of  BROWN genealogy.  
It is complicated, so we will start slow. Yes, there are, many more wives and tree branches but let's get started with some facts. Grody announced on the show that there was no guidebook to polygamist marriages. (Insert confused face here) These are just the simple facts, albeit, very important to KODY'S history. Not decided what all I will disclose otherwise. They act so dang stupid it amazes me. Sometimes I wonder if just by studying, we all know more than they do. Remember when he acted so.... DUMB like, oh, we didn't know a thing about polygamy until my dad and mom decided to go into it? Never-mind his grandmother was an ALLRED,  let alone even ALL their histories lead to polygamy. Now,let's just leave the good ole ALLRED tree for the season break.... don't give out any spoilers there folks! It's a bit dryer than most posts, but fascinating. since they took the trip, you'd think they'd be bursting with this info.

KODY WINN BROWN 

*Dad: WILLIAM WINN BROWN and GENIELLE TEW (Whose mother was an Allred)
Has been revealed on the show they are Fundamental Mormons, with other wives.

*Grandfather" ALMA TAYLOR BROWN and EDITH WINN



*Gr Grandfather: EBENEZER BROWN and CLARA ANN LITTLE



*Gr Gr Grandfather: JOSEPH GURNSEY BROWN and HARRIET MARIA YOUNG.
Here's an interesting tidbit: they were polygamists, and HARRIET MARIA YOUNG was the Dtr. of BRIGHAM YOUNG'S youngest brother, LORENZO. that would make BRIGHAM YOUNG - KODY BROWN's gr gr gr Uncle, and BRIGHAM'S Parents KODY'S gr gr gr gr (another story) 



JOSEPH GURNSEY BROWN, eldest son of EBENEZER and ANN WEAVER, was born November 8, 1824, at Dryden, Tompkins Co, New York. His father's family became members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints soon after it was organized....They were forced to endure the persecutions of the early saints and were driven from Nauvoo. EBENEZER joined the Mormon Battalion on June 26, 1846....On December 31. 1851, GURNSEY married 16 year old HARRIET MARIA YOUNG, the only daughter of LORENZO DOW YOUNG. (BRIGHAM'S BROTHER) About five years later, in 1856, GURNSEY along with others was asked to take provisions and meet the belated handcart companies of English saints who were struggling to reach the Valley before winter. These rescuers themselves had nothing easy. A forced drive of 300 to 400 miles across wintry mountains. They crowded their teams day after day looking ahead for the vanguard of walkers but the mountain valleys reached on, snowy and empty, past Echo Canyon on until they saw the shinning Uintah Mountains, and then the Wyoming plains. At Fort Bridger a new storm stopped them. That night of October 20th, Capt Willie and one companion, frostbitten, exhausted and riding two worn out animals, appeared out of the blizzard at fort Bridger. They told the men from Utah, storm or not, if they did not come at once there was no use to come at all.
They broke camp at once and started again. They did not stop again until they reached the Willie Company. The night before the rescuers reached them, nine more had died. The rest had not eaten for 48 hours.
Among those GURNSEY brought back to the Valley were two young ladies, ESTHER BROWN and ELIZABETH WHITE. BRIGHAM YOUNG had asked the settlers to open their homes and care for these Saints. So to his home he brought ESTHER. His wife, HARRIET took her in with her warm friendly way, caring for her until she again blossomed out in all her loveliness. On January 18, 1857, GURNSEY married ESTHER BROWN. On March 22, 1857, JOSEPH GURNSEY took his third wife, LOVINA MANHARD.
GURNSEY was called on a mission to England in 1864 where he served for nearly three years without purse or script, leaving three wives with children. Soon after his return, President BRIGHAM YOUNG called GURNSEY and his family to assist with the colonization of Moapa Valley, Nevada, known as the "Muddy Mission". In the fall of 1867 GURNSEY and HARRIET and their eight children ranging in age from 14 years to 8 months, made the journey to help settle the town of St. Joseph. Here they lost their baby daughter, Julliet, May 20, 1868.
This area was at that time a part of the territory of Deseret as mapped out by the early church leaders and was a part of Kane County, later Rio Virgin Co. A warehouse had been built on the Colorado River at a point known as Call's Landing. It was intended that the church would bring converts from Europe by steamships through the Gulf of Mexico and up the Colorado River and unload them at this point to continue the journey overland. The towns on the Muddy would serve as way stations where emigrants could rest and procure provisions for the rest of the journey.
The Muddy Mission proved to be unsuccessful, so far as colonization of that area at that time was concerned, and due to excessive taxes, extreme heat, shortage of water and other problems, the saints were released from the mission and were free to return to their former homes if they wished to. However, President YOUNG strongly urged them to remain in the southern Utah area and help re-settle the townsites that had been abandoned during the Indian troubles in the 1860's. GURNSEY brought LOVINA and her children, John, Delia and Will, to St. Joseph in the fall of 1870 while ESTHER and her children remained in Draper.
LOVINA'S son JOHN gives an interesting account of their experiences while in St. Joseph. He said when they arrived Aunt HARRIET and her seven children were living in a two-room adobe house with a dirt floor and a flag roof. The roof was made from cattails, ten to twelve feet tall, cut down in the swamps, tied in bundles about six inches in diameter and tied to the stringers and weighted down, making a water-tight roof. They had a chicken coop made of mesquite roots dug from the farm land. They used these roots for fuel also, as there was no timber closer than seventy miles and no willows for thirty miles. Flour was hauled from Draper; but the "muddy" soil was rich and the climate so mild that good gardens could be grown; sweet potatoes as large as small pumpkins and his father said in jest that the watermelons grew so fast they wore the vines out dragging them along.
When the settlers were released from their missions, the BROWNS along with other Muddyites, started for Long Valley. GURNSEY left LOVINA in the town of Washington, Washington County, and he and HARRIET and their family moved on. Along the way they met HARRIET'S brother, JOHN R. YOUNG. He persuaded GURNSEY to go to Kanab, and they arrived there in 1871 and lived in a tent bought from Johnson's Army. LOVINA and family were brought out later in the spring.
In Kanab the BROWNS secured two lots by squatting on them and they cultivated another 30 acres of land and built a two-room house with a room for each wife. Getting goods into the Kanab area was very difficult because of geographical difficulties and consequently most of the food and dry goods had to be produced by themselves. Sugar was almost unknown to them for several years; but good molasses was made from sugar cane that grew well here. GURNSEY set up the first sorgum mill in the northeast part of town. He planted orchards with all kinds of fruit trees, vines, berries, and shrubbery, etc. The first year he lived in Kanab he planted one acre of alfalfa and it made pig and chicken feed. He also raised garden vegetables of all kinds and raised potatoes in the Kanab Canyon and at what he called Cottonwood Canyon, a nice little tract of land about twelve miles west of Kanab. He had a few acres of meadow land in the Kanab Canyon he could mow several tons of wild hay and the country was just a mat of all kinds of wild grasses and herbs, so much so it was not necessary to have but a few-tons of hay.
It was necessary to built not only dams and canals, but roads and trails in order to get in and out of the country. The people would arrange what they called road gangs and ditch gangs and go out and build roads leading to Long Valley where hundreds of people who left the Muddy Mission had settled. The only grist mill was at Glendale, some twenty-seven miles over a set of rolling hills and washes, with sand so deep for a distance of thirteen miles that it would take four horses of good quality to move one ton of anything as the wagon wheels would sink into the sand from four to eight inches.
He managed to get along well for several years. President BRIGHAM YOUNG paid us a visit and he told the people to come out of the Kanab Canyon and farm the Valley just south of the town. It was a large fertile valley of very choice land. He told us to open the canyon and turn out cattle in it and let them tramp the water out of the meadows and swamps. He predicted that in a short time we would have a flood that would come down the canyon and wash it down to bedrock. We would build a canal around the town and have water to irrigate the town and to reservoir the water. We would be able to irrigate all the land in the valley and raise plenty of everything we would need in the shape of vegetables and cereals and hay.
It was a fact, for the flood came and washed out the sand and swamps and cleaned the canyon out so that the water increased in quantity sufficient to successfully irrigate some 1600 acres of land. Afterwards we had another large flood which tore out sand and rocks and mud down to a lower bedrock and increased the water still more. We have taken up all the land available and have plenty of spring water to irrigate all the land. It will produce good crops of hay and some hardy vegetables such as corn and potatoes.
 The BROWNS belonged to the United Order in Kanab as long as it lasted. While in Kanab each of the two wives added three more children to the family. Esther passed away April 21, 1881.
In the 1880's during the raid in which the government officials were confiscating church cattle and other property, GURNSEY was appointed to take over the church cattle and sheep at Pipe Springs and run them as his own. So HARRIET and the children lived at Pipe Springs for several years and LOVINA remained in Kanab. The Indians were hostile at this time and even though they lived in the fort, at Pipe Springs, they were in constant danger.
In 1894 GURNSEY bought a large red brick home in the northeast part of town. It had been built by Frank Rider and owned for a few years by Henry Bowman. The BROWN'S ran a hotel in the home with HARRIET and the girls providing meals and taking care of the rooms and the men folk taking care of the teams in the large barn and corral on the lot.
During all the years from 1870, Joseph Gurnsey Brown was a strong factor in leading out with the people and assisting in the general development of the whole country. He held responsible positions, being rather a religious man, not too much so as to hamper or hinder him from leading out in any honorable thing to be done. He was one of the very hardy, and what is called the rough-and-ready hut not the boisterous type. He was a level-headed, good, honest man; a man who did everything possible to assist his neighbor, either in or out of trouble, and to pay his honest obligations. He was an American and believed in giving his undivided support to his country and the President of the United States, whether or not he belonged to his party.
Joseph Gurnsey served in the Bishopric of the ward for several years and was always found willing to serve when the call came from the authorities. He also served well in civic positions as well, and in matters pertaining to colonization. Joseph Gurnsey Brown died of pneumonia, January 17, 1907, at Kanab, Kane County, Utah, at the age of 83. He even has his own wiki spot:  http://wiki.hanksplace.net/index.php/Joseph_Gurnsey_Brown

           HARRIET MARIA YOUNG


History - HARRIET was the fourth child LORENZO DOW YOUNG and PERSIS GOODALL, both of New York State. LORENZO was the youngest brother of BRIGHAM YOUNG.

From her diary we learn that her parents were among the first to join the Restored Church and gather to Kirtland, Ohio, which was then the Headquarters of the Church. From Kirtland they moved to Missouri (Far West) and were driven from there to Illinois. "I saw the Prophet many times and remember sitting on his knee more than once as a child ... he loved children. When we lived with them in one room in Missouri, I saw him ruffle brother John's hair and give him some glorious promises. They were all fulfilled."

On October 1, 1838, Maria's father was arrested with 29 others and all were sentenced to death for their part in the Battle of Crooked River. Only because their guards softened toward them were they able to escape at night.

The family moved to Quincy, Illinois, then to a place near Carthage and finally, in the fall of 1843 to Nauvoo.

"Mother and we younger children were in Nauvoo when the Prophet and Hyrum were killed in Carthage Jail by the mob. I can still sense and feel the spirit of sadness that was over the whole place at that time. I wanted to take my brother John and go to the Mansion House, about a mile away, to see them while they lay in state, but mother was not able to go and would not let us out of her sight because of the threats of the mobs."

HARRIET crossed the plains in the first emigration company on the Emigration Fund Plan with Bishop Hunter in charge. "Mother, Aunt Fanny, Nancy Green, a cousin, and myself came with the Richards family. We started July 5th . . . and arrived in Salt Lake Valley the 28th of September 1850 with no trouble to speak of enroute."

"When I first saw the Valley it looked grand to me because I saw the whole valley with majestic mountains rising all around and the blue lake in the distance and I knew that here was home and rest."

"When the University of Deseret (called the Parent School) met for its second term in the Council House, I started to School, but after a couple of months, I stopped and went to work for Aunt Fannie Young to help her and learn dressmaking. While there I met JOSEPH GURNSEY BROWN, and we were married on the last day of the year, Dec. 31, 1851 by (President) BRIGHAM YOUNG at the home of Feramorz Little."

HARRIET was just seventeen, a small beautiful girl with her hair in ringlets. In Draper, her first child, Homer Achilles, was born on October 25, 1853, followed December 23, 1855 by Persis Ann.

In 1856 GURNSEY was asked along with others to meet the belated handcart and wagon companies of   English Saints struggling to get to the Valley before winter. As he neared the company he picked up two English girls walking ahead, LIZZIE WHITE and ESTHER BROWN. Since they had no relatives in America he took them to his home in Draper for the winter. On January 18, 1857 he made ESTHER his second wife. On March 22, 1857 HARRIET'S husband married a third wife, LOVINA MANHARD.

HARRIET was among others celebrating the 24th of July in the Big Cottonwood Canyon in 1857 when word was brought that Johnson's Army was coming. "My what excitement this caused. President YOUNG quieted the people down and told them to go to camp and get ready to start back to the City early next morning. He said he intended to be the last to leave in order to see that all were safely on their way."

JOSEPH GURNSEY served a mission (2 1/2-3 years without purse or script) in England, leaving his wives and a dozen children in the Lord's hands. When he came home in 1867 BRIGHAM YOUNG asked him to take HARRIET and go to the "Muddy Mission" promising that HARRIET'S health would improve. The "Muddy," a desolate area west of Washington County at the mouth of the Muddy River was a test of endurance and strength. It was so hot, HARRIET said, that the milk soured before the cream could rise.

In May of 1870 baby Juliette died. In the fall GURNSEY brought LOVINA down to the Muddy; ESTHERr remained in Draper. In 1871 they were released from the "Muddy Mission" when a survey disclosed the Muddy, an area now known as Moapa Valley, to be in Nevada, and Nevada taxes were impossible to pay.

They were persuaded by Harriet's brother, JOHN R. YOUNG, to settle in Kanab where they arrived in February 1871. LOVINA and her children joined them and the two families lived in a tent until a two-room adobe house could be built, with one room for each wife. Later another house was built for LOVINA. HARRIET gave $300, which she had been willed, to GURNSEY to buy windows and hardware for LOVINA'S home.

In Kanab, HARRIET had three more children. She raised ten of her eleven children to adults, but buried four of her five sons in early manhood. When ESTHER died in Draper in 1881 her oldest married daughter, Lettie (Celestia) cared for her baby sister, Harriet Luetta, until she was 14 years old when she joined the other three children, Isaac O., James Arthur, and Rose Anna. Harriet loved and cared for them as for her own.

Sorrow came to GURNSEY and HARRIET on March 30. 1886. Their oldest son, Homer Achilles, still unmarried, died of pneumonia at the age of 33. The second son, Joseph Gurnsey Jr., died of consumption July 23, 1887, leaving his wife Clara Little, and two children, Joseph Gurnsey III and Curtie. Clara later married his brother, Ebenezer. On February 13, 1893 another son, Lorenzo Young, died after a long illness. He left a wife, Elizabeth Haycock, and four children. Harriet related that after her third son, Lorenzo, died a cloud hung over her and she was constantly apprehensive. Less than a month later her youngest son, Feramorz Little, only 21, was fatally injured during a horse race. She said, "Well it has happened, now I can rest."

In 1894 GURNSEY bought HARRIET a large red brick home built by John Rider. The thing HARRIET said that, attracted her most about the house was the large deep basement with rock walls, white-washed interior, and dirt floors that could be wet down each morning making a cold place to keep milk and butter and other foods.

Persis Ann and her children came to live in the home to care for JOSEPH GURNSEY and HARRIET in their old age. GURNSEY died January 7, 1907 and Persis Ann, after a short siege of pnumonia was buried June 12,1919. Then Harriet's daughter, Angeline, passed away May 24, 1924. This was another hard blow. Her two grandsons, Gurnsey Spencer and Homer Spencer and their wives were still in the home. Harriet moved her things into a large east bedroom where she spent her time sewing, reading, and visiting with friends and relatives, coming out for meals and to visit with her grandchildren and great grandchildren.

HARRIET lived a very busy life. Even in her last years he made her own dresses and ironed them herself. She hemmed Temple veils, made quilts, some when she was 90 and 91 years old. She loved to read and wrote many letters At age 83 Harriet read Redpath's History of the World, volume by volume, and enjoyed it all.

There was in her life a perfect blending of all the graces and virtues. Complete honesty and sincerity, coupled with a charming manner - a good companion for a quiet chat; the life of the party in a social gathering; a gracious manner that made people love to do things for her and with her; pride, which kept her always well dressed, perfectly groomed, and as she would tell you in confidence, kept her from putting on weight. She was a small woman with a head of beautiful wavy hair.

There was a great love between Harriet and Joseph Gurnsey. Joseph E. Robinson, her son-in-law, wrote, "How Grandmother loved Grandfather Brown. To her he was the Beau Brummell among men. One day she came to the store and asked, "Joseph have you any good men's shirts?" I thought to tease her and said, "You mean men's good shirts, don't you, Mother?" I'll never forget how she replied. "No! I mean GOOD MEN'S shirts, for I want one for Gurnsey and he is the best man I know."

Harriet said in closing her record, "I have had the honor of knowing all the Presidents of the Church from Joseph Smith to Heber J. Grant, and many other leading men and women, and now that I have lived to a good old age and feel that my work is about done, I look back and think that I would not care to live it over for I might not do so well as I have done."



*Gr Gr Gr grandfather EBENEZER BROWN and ANN WEAVER.
Poligamists. fought in the Battalion with Allreds.
*Helped build the Kirtland Temple and experienced the Far West War.
EBENEZER BROWN was born 6 December 1802 in Herkimer County, New York, the son of WILLIAM BROWN and HANNAH SWEET. We do not know anything of his early life, but on 23 July 1823 he married ANN WEAVER, and they had four children. Joseph Guernsey born 8 November 1824 in New York, Harriet born 6 February 1827, Norman born 6 February 1830, and John Weaver born 17 June 1837 at Peru, LaSalle County, Illinois. We find the family living in Illinois at the time their youngest child was born. The next August they moved to Far West, Caldwell County, Missouri, arriving in September. The saints who reached Missouri were so brutally treated and suffered privation, hardships and some of them sickness and death. Ann Weaver Brown, the mother in this family, died 24 June 1842 at Quincey, Illinois, and Ebenezer was left a widower with four young children.
When the dispossessed saints returned from Missouri to Illinois, most of them crossing the river went northward to Commerce (later Nauvoo), but the Brown and Draper families went south and settled near Pleasantville, Illinois, in the wide Mississippi River bottom. It was a place of beauty and great fertility. The surrounding country lush with corn and fruit and timber and one can hardly suppress regret that they ever had to leave there. They were fast becoming economically independent, and they enjoyed the full measure of religious liberty. Their Non-Mormon neighbors were impressed with their industry, character and religion.
Ebenezer was good friends with William Draper and his sister Phoebe Draper Palmer, a widow with six or seven (6)children. Phoebe had received a patriarchal blessing from Joseph Smith Sr., and had been promised if she was faithful and wise she would be blessed with a companion who would be a man of God and that she would be able to bring up her family right, that she would have good happy days. She kept the faith and was wise and the blessing and promise was fulfilled in Ebenezer Brown, a righteous and kindly man who gave her much and to whom she returned the full measure of her devotion. Ebenezer and Phoebe were married 1842, and she, no doubt, felt her patriarchal blessing had been fulfilled. There were now ten children in this combined family, her youngest child was eight while his youngest was five.
What their lives would have been had they been permitted to remain in Pleasantville can only be surmised, but it is almost certain that they would not have been subjected to the trials and hardships that beset them and their children for more than a century. In the very year that Ebenezer and Phoebe joined forces the church found itself in deep difficulties in Hancock County, Illinois, where Nauvoo was located. Mob hostility had grown so fierce that Joseph Smith sent out a call to all saints in outlying counties to break up their settlements and move in to Hancock County. The Draper and Brown families were in Pike County, where hostility had not yet developed, but they could not ignore the call to their leader. Ebenezer and Phoebe moved directly tn Nauvoo where they lived until about 1844. There they had two more years enjoying the good will of the Non-Mormons in the neighborhood, but tensions built up at Nauvoo to an alarming extent. Hostility against the leaders of the church grew until it culminated in the assassination of the founder of the church and his brother Hyrum.
After this, it became manifest that the Mormons would have to leave the state of Illinois.. In 1846 Nauvoo was abandoned under bloody and miserable circumstances know to all. The whole Church membership began to move wet-ward. On their way through Iowa they learned through BRIGHAM YOUNG and HEBER C. KIMBALL who were returning to Nauvoo after establishing camps on the Missouri River that Captain JAMES ALLEN of the United States Army had requested the saints to furnish 500 able-bodied men to march against Mexico with an army under the command of Colonel STEPHEN L. KEARNY. This call seems to have been resented until advice was given that the formation of a battalion for service in Mexico which at the same time would help to get the saints to their destination on pay from the government.
To fully understand the heroism and suffering of the battalion, they had just been forcibly ejected from their homes in Illinois and were plunging into the wilderness almost empty handed. They were short both on clothing and food and were poorly prepared for military service. After the recruiting and enlistment, a gala farewell party was held for the departing recruits in a large bowery at Council Point, a trading post on the river, and the next morning 16 July 1846 a march began which made history. EBENEZER and PHOEBE were part of the enlisted personnel. EBENEZER was given the rank of sergeant in Company A., and PHOEBE was given the title of laundress. The first leg of their march was between Council Bluffs in Iowa and Fort Leavenworth in Kansas. They marched southward along the river in temperatures exceeding 100 degrees for about 200 miles. It took them 11 days to reach Fort Leavenworth where they were uniformed, armed, and given a 12 day rest. Already the ordeal had began to tell. Many of the men were sick with chills and fever and even the officers did not escape. Captain ALLEN died 23 July 1846.
On 12 August 1846 the first attachment left Fort Leavenworth headed for the Arkansas River which flows southeasterly through Kansas. They reached the river 11 September 1846 and by this time it was obvious that the sick soldiers would have to be dropped. The battalion then left the river and struck Out southwesterly toward Santa Fe. Food supplies were almost exhausted and the soldiers were put on two-thirds ration. Good water was almost non-existent over this stretch and they were reduced to drinking brackish water in whatever slough or mud hole they could find it. Hunger and dysentery began to enfeeble the men until they could hardly respond to call for guard duty at night. The drugs administered to them often within abuse seemed to have a worse effect than the disease and exhaustion from which they suffered. It was, therefore, a great relief when they reached Santa Fe 9 October 1846 where they were given a ten day rest. They were allowed to rest and recuperate at Santa Fe until the 19 October when the battalion began the last and worst 1,100 miles of its appalling march. The terrain was entirely unfamiliar even to the officers. Forage was scarce for the animals and food was just as lacking for the men. By November some of the teams died from pure exhaustion and poor and skinny as they were they were eaten by the men. There were 56 who were sent back to Pueblo more than 300 miles away.
The main body of the battalion marched on. Their objective was Tucson in southern Arizona. After crossing the Rio Grande River, they entered barren and rough terrain. Their food supplies were exhausted. If an oxen died, they ate it including the hide which they diced and boiled for soup. They also took the sheep pelts from under their saddles and roasted them for food. They often marched all day without water, and some of them died of thirst. Sometimes they sunk wells as much as 300 feet in search of water.
Finally they reached the Gila River which they followed to its confluence with the San Pedro flowing into it from the south. In this area there were extensive mesquite thickets full of wild cattle. Here at last was food in abundance (meat that is) if they could get it. The bulls, however, charged the men on sight and sent them scattering. Not until they devised some strategy could they get meat. Even then it took volleys of musket balls to stop a ferocious bull. In due time they had meat in quantity, but they had nothing to go with it not even salt. Even so this fare enabled them to reach Tucson where they had a brush (mostly conversational) with a Mexican garrison which was subdued without difficulty. Here they rested, got fresh supplies and hobbled on into the western desert. All the way from Tucson to the confluence of the Gila and Colorado Rivers the going was especially rough. Water holes were as much as 75 miles apart. It was cactus country. Their uniforms were in tatters and their shoes were worn out, so marching was something less than pleasant.
When the battalion reached the neighborhood of present day Yuma, they encountered large numbers of Pima Indians whom the Mexicans had sought to incite to attack the battalion without avail. On the contrary they had in their possession a store of goods and several mules. They gladly turned the goods and animals over and also sold the soldiers some of their own supplies. Refreshed again they began their last adventure through the desert of the Imperial Valley. Lack of shoes was their greatest handicap which they tried to overcome by making them from rawhide, but they were not skillful as shoemakers and the hides drying wrinkled in hard convolutions that were harder on the feet than cactus so they hobbled on as best they could until 29 January 1847 when they reached San Diego on the Pacific Ocean.
The next day their commander addressed them and congratulated the battalion on its safe arrival on the shores of the Pacific Ocean and the conclusion of its march of over 2,000 miles. History may be searched in vain for an equal march of infantry; nine-tenths of it through a wilderness where nothing but savages and wild beasts were found, or deserts where for want of water there is no living creature. There with almost hopeless labor we have dug deep walls which the future travelers will enjoy. With crowbar and pickax we have worked our way over mountains and hewed a passage through a chasm of living rock. Thus marching half naked and half fed and living upon wild animals (without salt to season your substance of fresh meat) we have discovered and made a road of value to our country.
He ended his speech by saying that there was work yet to be done and as EBENEZER and PHOEBE had yet more than 1,000 miles of mountain and desert terrain to travel before they could rejoin their families in Utah and as they had no money with which to buy outfits or supplies to travel, they re-enlisted and served in the Army until 14 March 1848 when they were mustered out with renewed courage and a little money to start them on their way to Utah. They traveled northward over an inland route until they reached Sutter's Fort held by a German-Swiss citizen eager to make improvements on his Spanish land grant so that he could qualify to hold it under his new sovereign the United States of America. To develop it, he needed laborers and they were grateful for the opportunity to earn some money so they went to work. Early in 1848 Sutter sent a group of whites and Indians to construct a sawmill on the American River 24 January 1848. EBENEZER and PHOEBE were among the first to enjoy its fruits. They might have become wealthy Californians had they not been bound to the cause of establishing a homeland for the Church to which they were so strongly attached. BRIGHAM YOUNG feared the disintegration of his people if they followed the lure of gold so in 1849 he called the battalion members home. They obeyed. PHOEBE and EBENEZER reached Salt Lake in the fall of the year, and though they crossed the rugged Sierra Nevada Mountains, the forbidding Carson Sinks, and the Great American Desert over which but few white men had ever passed and where the bones of some who had tried to pass lay bleached in the sun,..they left no record of their ordeal. They had made it to Zion and that was enough. They had a happy reunion with their children in the fall of 1849.
Salt Lake City was then about two and a half years old, but it was filled with immigrants seeking places to build their homes. EBENEZER and PHOEBE, no doubt, had an advantage; they were fresh from the gold fields and, no doubt, had gold in their pockets. Their children whom they had left on the Missouri River with Ebenezer's oldest daughter: Harriet, and her husband had now reached the valley and together they began to plan a new life. Ebenezer with his three sons, Joseph, Norman, and John set out to find a new and unclaimed land because the land around the city had already been distributed among the first pioneers. Together they discovered unoccupied land and water in a large cove in the south-east corner of the Salt Lake valley through which the water from four springs ran which they forthwith appropriated and began immediately to build a cabin and to prepare for crops to be planted in the spring. The waters of the springs were joined and thereafter were known as South Willow Creek.
Later they set to work building log cabins preparatory to bringing other members of the family in. By the spring of 1850, Ebenezer was ready to bring Phoebe down from Salt Lake to help build a permanent home. He felt too that there was ample room for more people at South Willow Creek than his and Phoebe's immediate families, so it appears they asked all the Drapers they knew to join them. Other people were soon attracted to this settlement. By 1852, the community on South Willow Creek had grown to the extent that the church provided it with ecclesiastical government and the name of the community was changed to Draper. Phoebe was the first mistress and also conducted a day nursery for young children.
In the meantime Ebenezer and his sons had been profitably employed. Be-ginning in 1849 they began establishing a cattle business. They cannily foresaw a good market for meat among the saints and particularly a cash market in the hordes of immigrants beginning to pass through Utah on the way to California.
By 1853 Ebenezer was a man of substance and as such was able to care for some of the many unmarried women in the church. At any rate in that year he married Samantha Pulsipher, and in 1854 he married Mary Elizabeth Wright, and had a sizeable family by each.
From John W. Brown's Diary we read: In May 1856 Ebenezer and family was called on a mission to Carson Valley. We traveled 16 miles and stopped at Mill Creek for the night. Tuesday we spent most of the day in Salt Lake ate dinner with our aged brother Kimball and left the city that night. We started each morning about 8 or 9 o'clock and traveled between 15 and 20 miles a day. The weather was fairly good and feed and water were good most of the way. We made stops at the Hot Springs, Kaysville, Weber, Ogden Hole, North Willow Creek and Box Elder City, where we found a small company waiting for us. On May 11th the camp was organized with Ebenezer Brown as Captain. We mustered 23 able-bodied men and 13 wagons. May 12th the camp took up the line of march. We have passed all the settlements, our mountain homes have passed from our view, and we are wending our way towards a lovelier country, a milder climate, but to a colder-hearted people.
We started each day between 8 or 9 o'clock and made about 15 miles a day; some days we made better time, other days travel was slower as the roads were in poor conditions, being sandy, rough and hilly. We were blessed in many ways; our teams were strengthened, and we met with few accidents worthy of notice. We met a few Indians at the Pilot Springs and after friendly greetings and exchanges made we continued on our way making stops at Blue Springs, Stoney Canyon, Decesher Creek, Goose Creek, Canyon Creek and Humboldt River. The weather was fair except for a few days of wind and bluster. We found feed and water supplies to be fair most of the way. On June 24th we arrived at Carson and pitched our tents in Washeow Valley where a town is located and a number of saints have taken up farms and commenced improvements. It is not known how long Ebenezer remained here, but he probably was back in Utah in 1858 as he wrote his son, John, to go to Carson Valley and collect the money owing him for his improvements. He did not collect it, and had to work to earn money to come home with. John had been on a mission to the Hawaiian Islands.
When Ebenezer took his other two wives Samantha Pulsipher and Mary Elizabeth Wright. Phoebe seems not to have minded this. But Samantha died in 1870 leaving a family of minor children, whereupon Phoebe at the age of seventy-three took the responsibility of raising a third family in addition to discharging her duties as an officer in the Relief Society. She brought them all to maturity, and in the process earned the love and devotion not only of these children, but all of Ebenezer's children.
Ebenezer was the husband of four women and the father of 22 children, 13 sons and 9 daughters. He died 26 January 1878, and was buried 29 January 1878 at Draper, Salt Lake County, Utah. He had fought a good fight, and with thousands of other people like him had lived that calumny and bitter prejudice once so manifest against them died away and in its place came admiration and praised not only for themselves, but for the Church which guided them through.

No road map for being a polygamist family? While I'm a bit feisty, might I add that even Janelle's "no clue" doesn't hold water, considering LDS is based on Joseph Smith. When watching "Big Love"... when Alby started getting messages from the hat...well, let's say it put this mess into perspective for me, and mad me spit my Pepsi out louder than Robyn can slurp.So, just as a quickie to add to yesterday's show, we know that Kody was kin to the Browns, Youngs, and Allreds, some of the most historical families in the roots of the religion.
 
Since my Family Tree Maker is on my other computer and I threw this together in a few short minutes. Thinking to myself, wouldn't of been wise to have more of a story to tell the kids along the way? How they relate?  Makes more sense to fly east then drive west to experience the trails, but, then again, we are talking about the Browns. Seems if Kody had all this information, he serendipitously would be expediting its disclosure to us and of his importance and potential. They actually could of made it interesting.
Talk of Browns for now, we will save the others for later!

OTHER Brown Posts:
http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Brown-Descendants-10879
http://www.orsonprattbrown.com/murphy-draper/ebenezer-brown1802-1878.html.
http://www.ourlittlecircle.com/journals/pdf/Joseph-Gurnsey-Brown-and-Harriet-Maria-Young.pdf http://historypreserved.com/draper_photos%201.htm

>
(Source: Find a Grave, From the Mormon Pioneers by Delbert M. Draper, genealogy work done privately Top Picture: ,Little crooked Christmas tree by Michael Cutting. http://wiki.hanksplace.net/index.php/Harriet_Maria_Young )

196 comments:

  1. Fascinating. I think the Browns should do one of those handcart treks next time they take a "vacation." ;)

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  2. Personally, I would have been more interested in the Browns reenacting the the Mormon handcart trail than in watching them diva-out in an RV.
    I also find it very hard to believe that the Browns have no clue about their families of origin, what with genealogy being such a HUGE thing with the LDS.

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    1. Like Oprah and Gail's trip back to the Colony - Kody Style!

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  3. I have recently learned about the struggles and hardships my (non-Morman) pioneer ancestors faced while settling in this country. It makes you ask, would they be proud of you and the family in these years following them? It makes you want to live up to the high standards they set. When I find myself being petty about something I remember what they went through and survived.

    Something tells me that Kody's ancestors would not be proud of the way Kody lives his lazy life. How can he not look back upon those people and see a roadmap for living his life? I don't think convertibles and french doors are anything his ancestors would be proud of.

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    1. VERY WELL SAID!!!

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    2. Hi Serena: You make a very good point! If you visit any of the historical museums in Utah, or read Utah public textbooks, they seem to think that only the Mormons were 19th-century pioneers, and nobody other than the Mormons opened the West. I think it's important to remember that a) Native Americans and Mexicans were already living in the West (Utah was Mexican territory when the Mormons arrived), and b) There were non-Mormon pioneers who settled out West for a variety of non-religious reasons.

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    3. I have done my family history, and I would swoon over writings like these. Most of us that have done our histories have little to go on.

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  4. So get what you are implying, Mister Sister. This expedition should have been expressed to the children much more about their own ancestors - right or wrong, how they were involved, what it meant for the generations that followed. Does it really amaze anyone that Kody doesn't really seem to know his own Brown family name involvement? They carried on about Brigham Young looking like Kody, yet, never once mentioned that he would be Kody's what, 3rd great uncle, or that his parents (Brigham's) would be a gr gr gr gr grandparent to Kody? I doubt he has put all this together enough to speak of it with any real authority. I find genealogy fascinating. I hope someday you will go ahead and fill in all the twisted blanks.

    The road trip was, well, terrible. All those kids traveling, and it's Kody who is whining? PLEASE LOUISE. Was there some great need to travel so long so fast? TLC just luvs to put them in these situations so they disintegrate.
    I never understood why Kody was barking at Meri, or why someone else could not drive besides Kody.
    Robun was defiantly hiding in this episode. usually, she makes sure that her profile is seen. The fact she keeps putting Solomon front and center annoys me.
    I bet the minute the cameras are off, that little one is thrust into her sisters arms.
    I actually found reading this post very interesting. I like history. With all of the family being LDS or not, their forefathers all had some part in all of this. Good for Meri and Robyn speaking up. I know if it were me, I would be stopping the talk on the street and emphasizing to my children that their forefathers were right there, but it seemed to get glossed over.
    What exactly did Kody want Meri to obey and do? Let's face it. He has no leadership qualities. None. When Meri made a schedule, then he just had to pick on her. Now they are no longer a part of the Apostolic United Brethren Fundamental Church, Kody is their prophet? What a mess.
    So little time spent on the kids. I agree with others that have said on different posts, they need to hire the writers here to give the show some assimilation of continuity for the show. usually I am pretty quest and enjoy reading the posts, but this show has peaked my interest for some reason. Sorry if I took up too much space!
    Merry Christmas everyone! mine are all over, YEAH!!!!

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    1. The Brown family defiantly got a boost from being related to the Youngs - even if it is just in the history. most of our forefathers traveled and made sacrifices, but yet were not documented.
      And Grody doesn't even see the significance, other than to VALIDATE his LOVE.

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    2. Maybe since Kody compared himself to Brigham's picture - they look like the Young family, not Browns!
      Is it NOT amazing that none of the Brown adults had a grasp on how many wives JS had, nor BY? I know there have been at least 2 times Kody has stated wrongly how many Brigham had. Finding it very difficult to believe that these adults had no idea that Joseph married women who were married, and shared "husbands." If we, here that read the blog, can glean what little we know since the beginning of the show, why would they not have studied and known all of this, practically by heart? I do not, by any practicality, see the reason they would pretend not to know the facts. What they are showing is that they have very little interest in the realities of the beginnings of Mormonism, other than they get to have many wives. If you were going to believe the book of Mormon, would you not investigate its writer just a tad? The more I watch the adult Browns, the more I see how pathetic they are in their own church history.

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    3. Yes, but Christians for the most part know nothing about Judaism and Jesus was Jewish. Never said he wasn't. The 'Last Super' was a Passover Seder, I never really hear any non-Jews refer to the last super as a Passover Seder. So it's the same thing. I'm not a fan, and think this will more then likely be the last season for Sister Wives. Do you notice how many new shows there are on TLC for 2013? A lot, and I think the jig is up for this silly staged show.

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    4. Pat - I was raised a Baptist, and it was ALWAYS in our teachings (both in Sunday School AND regular service) that Jesus was born and raised Jewish, and also that the last supper took place on "the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread" and in fact when we had communion to commemorate the Last Supper our church used matzo crackers in place of the leavened bread that was used the rest of the year. However, I believe that the Last Supper is considered an event in and of itself in Christianity, that just happened (or may have happened - there is still a lot of debate on the actual date) to occur on the first day of Passover.

      The meaning of the bread and the wine is different for Christians than it is in the Old Testament I believe. However, I'm far from a theologist, so I leave it to more learned people to comment. I just wanted to say that it's not necessarily true that "Christians for the most part" aren't aware of our religion's origins.

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    5. Very very true...I have some Christian friends that thought being Jewish was an ethnicity. Yeah...lol

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    6. I'm Catholic and live in the deep South. I've never met a single person who doesn't know Jesus was Jewish. I was taught about Passover in depth at the Catholic schools I attended. Participated in Seder-type meals to learn the significance of the foods served. I fail to see how referring to The Last Supper as The Last Supper is the same thing as not knowing the facts surrounding the founder of your religion. Particularly when that religion is less than 200 years old.

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  5. Someone on the previous post remarked on Koturd using an energy drink with caffeine....I asked a Mormon once about soda...what I was told was that the prohibition specifically refers to coffee and tea....and some Mormons assume that meant caffeine, and so avoid all caffeinated stuff....but many take it at the literal word, and so can drink soda, energy drinks, etc....I actually know Mormons who drink soda, and some who don't.

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    1. my Mormon relatives say that it applies to hit drinks only,yet they drink hot cocoa! go figure

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    2. On a previous season, Janelle had a coffee maker in her home. She admitted to drinking coffee.

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    3. I guess when you're the only one bringing in the bacon, no one cares if you are breaking the "no caffeine rule". I can't see Mr. Lazy Ass ever saying anything to Janelle that would affect her working and him continuing his hard work of hair flipping and rotating.

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  6. “I needed to stop and get everybody out of my face,” Another great line from Kody. 3 days together, him in an RV with only 1/2 of them.

    He cracks me up. Since the move, he really has a distance between what his wives live and his sense of reality. Oh, we all get tired of kids in the car. But he really never has to face ALL his brood, or should I say, deal with them, near as much. Where's that happy face? Or at least the goofy one!

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  7. The museum director denying entry to a museum because he doesn’t approve of the Browns’ religious beliefs. That was very hypocritical, to say the least.

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    1. I agree. And to know that what was Joseph Smith's revelation was, and part of the covenants. I doubt that the tour guide would say that was the reason if it were not true.

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    2. MisterS., I was wondering about something pertaining to that museum. First off, I'm an atheist so, that's out there in the open. I'm a Jewish Atheist & we call ourselves: "Jatheists," which is a term my son coined. At any rate, I fully am a supporter of the separation between govt. and religion. I'm wondering if tax dollars support the museum, and if they do, isn't it against the law to discriminate in terms of religion, race, etc.? I can see if it is a PRIVATELY run museum, as I am also a free-market, libertarian kind-of-thinker. However, if it is a museum backed by us, then how could they pick who may or may not enter? This has had me pondering ever since the show aired. Did I misunderstand and think the museum was public or what? Thanks in advance, for reading this reply.

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    3. It's a private museum so I suppose they do what they want.

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    4. Actually, it's owned by the LDS church. I can see why they might not want to let Grody and Circus (complete with camera crew) into the building. The Browns embarrass everybody in which they come into contact, including any religious institution with which they are associated.
      I don't think that it's hypocritical to not want media-enabled polygamists to tie the LDS church any closer to the now-defunct doctrine of plural marriage. I wouldn't want my place used as a photo-op for a bunch of loony toons.

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    5. If that's what happened...I think there's a lot of creative editing going on.

      Didn't someone who lives in or near Nauvoo state in the previous post regarding this episode that the museum is only open limited hours? Perhaps the producers wanted the owners of the museum to open just for their filming and the owners said no.

      I can't imagine that most Mormons are exactly proud of or thrilled about the Browns "representing" their religion to non-Mormons. The LDS church has spent over a century in re-branding its religion to kind of expunge the polygamy aspect. The Mormons I know IRL are good people who are normal - not whackadoos like the Kody Krew.

      The docent might have been asked to play along with the "because we're plygs" reason - all he did was repeat what Kody said.

      I bet there have been plenty of polygamists in that museum - the difference is they aren't Kody, who has not exactly endeared himself to mainstream Mormons.

      Just like Disneyland and the LV school district - the museum opted to keep the crazy reality road show off its property. IMO.

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    6. Bringing back from the previous thread:

      AnonymousDecember 24, 2012 10:21 PM
      I live around the areas they were visiting. Think this was discussed in the spring when they went on this trip, but going to Hannibel, MO?? Really?? Sorry I don't think of Mark Twain, I think of winery tours, people standing around in the streets drinking etc...LOL.

      Second, the museum. "We're not allowed in because we're plygs, right?" WRONG, Kody and TLC who like to MAKE UP FAKE DRAMA.
      My husband walked thru and said, "oh they must have been closed that day"
      NO KIDDING. The museum is a tiny place run by one person, it opens late in the spring, is open Tues-Friday and oh yes...if you have a group over say 20, you have to make arrangements at least 2-3 weeks in advance to get a tour of the place.
      THAT would be why you didn't get into the museum, Brown family, you didn't plan ahead. NO ONE cares that you are 'plygs'. Trust me, no one cares, no one cared that you were here. I was probably one of the few that knew who you were and I didn't even bother to find out what day filming was.
      Don't give us this martyr crapola, no one is buying it.

      So I guess we're getting a next season featuring another Brown Christmas in new houses (are these owned or rented? seems we always see these mad dashes to new house only to find out they were just rented to look good for Christmas episodes).

      CJ, not using my usual board name as I don't like to post where I live. Thanks.

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    7. Sorry, I don't buy the explanation that they were denied admission because of their lifestyle. It seems more likely to me that the museum didn't want them filming inside. Plus, I call bs on their not knowing that Smith "married" women who already had husbands. I also liked hw they glommed onto Twain's comment "supporting" polygamy (which it didn't) but ignored Twain referring to the Book of Mormon as "chloroform in print."

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    8. I believe the museum did not want the family in there - for reasons of being on a polygamist show. Didn't want filming.

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    9. Owned by LDS? They blurred out the name but based on the look of the building and the description of the location, I believe its the Kibbe Hancock Heritage Museum. (I might be wrong) which is owned by the county, NOT by LDS. in fact its founder, Alice Kibbe, was a Baptist. http://kibbe.wordpress.com/

      here's a site with a picture of the Kibbe Museum exterior. http://tristatesradio.com/post/carthage-puts-hearse-block

      Based on the artifacts they have listed as being in the museum, I'd say that the proprietors were concerned about damage. It seems really "close" inside i.e. lots and lots of exhibits.

      Something tells me we've been played, and the docent (described by a TWOP commenter as looking like "Jesus in a Kramer shirt" - LOVE that) was in on it. I don't recall them ever mentioning his last name...

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    10. If the museum did not say they COULD NOT come in, then why are they not protesting the lie shown on TV?

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    11. See my post below. If it's the Kibbe Museum, it's run by one person, although owned by the County. For all we know they might not even be aware of the show.

      here's what I think might have happened:

      1) Powers that be at TLC/F8F decided to go the whole Big Love story arc and send the whole crew on a National Lampoon Vacation-style Road Trip to Nauvoo.

      2) At some point, they found that right across the street from the Carthage Jail was an interesting little historical museum (probably when they arrived in town and Jesus Kramer (my name for the tour guide) said it's usually part of his tour).

      3) since this is the Kody Show and I assume that the producers are as lame as the family is in planning ahead, the producers just ASSUME they'll be able to march into the museum and film away.

      4) they find out that the museum is closed, or the ONE person who runs the place didn't return their call, or the ONE person who runs the place directed them to their policy that large groups must call ahead and set up an appointment

      5) Not being aware of discrimination laws, Kody and the show director decides that this is their GOLDEN opportunity that FINALLY they can TWIST this into a "we were turned away because we are PLYGS" moment that they have been looking for since the show started airing.

      6) Jesus Kramer, loving the publicity, goes along with it.

      7) the museum is totally in the dark since the ONE person who runs the place doesn't watch crappy reality TV and the name was blurred.

      8) Meanwhile in order to fill time, someone finds out that Mark Twain wrote a few paragraphs on polygamy and they end up going to the Mark Twain exhibit nearby and twist THAT into a Polygamist History Bit.

      that's my take on it anyway...

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    12. It seems that many must live in the area, and know the museum. Why doesn't someone simply go and talk to them, explaining what was said on the show? Nothing like a little clarification. the place should not get bad publicity if it is not true, and of course, would be HAPPY to clarify it here!

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    13. "If the museum did not say they COULD NOT come in, then why are they not protesting the lie shown on TV?"

      Really?

      Consider:

      Nobody I know in person has even heard of Kody Brown or the Sisterwives show, and I would bet that is true for most of the readers of this blog.

      By their own words, a typical LDS person does "not even know that polygamy exists". So it is most likely that even most mormons have never heard of Kody Brown or the Sisterwives show.

      What is absurd is to expect that a county run museum would feel the need to refute any accusation made by a penny ante small time, on its last legs cable tv psuedo reality show.

      I am betting that the county and the museum caretakers would not know who these people are, let alone know what was said about them during the taping. Doubtful anyone in the county even watches the show.

      The real test will be to see if Kody finds another lawyer to file a pro-bono lawsuit against the state for discrimination on the basis of being polygamists.

      I think Kody should man up and do this, or come out and admit the whole "they would not let us in because we're plygs" was a sham!

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  8. Guys, off topic but I had to show you this. Went to watch the show on XFINITY on Demand - and noticed this is how they bill the show. "An unscripted series documenting daily life for a polygamous family Utah."

    Unscripted! I was laughing so hard remembering Kody getting all flustered at teh Moralis interview about something not being rehearsed!

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  9. When did the Brown family leave the AUB?

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    1. As far as I know Kody and mob are still AUB members.

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    2. I thought so too, but I have read comments intimating that the Browns are no longer AUB members. I think Christine would have a very hard time leaving the AUB given her family's place in the hierarchy.

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    3. i think you mean "insinuating"

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    4. mmmm a delicate distinction,

      "insinuating"
      in·sin·u·at·ing (n-sny-tng)
      adj.
      1. Provoking gradual doubt or suspicion; suggestive: insinuating remarks.
      2. Artfully contrived to gain favor or confidence; ingratiating.


      "intimating"
      in·ti·mate 2 (nt-mt)
      tr.v. in·ti·mat·ed, in·ti·mat·ing, in·ti·mates
      1. To make known subtly and indirectly; hint. See Synonyms at suggest.
      2. To announce; proclaim.

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    5. WineInTheWetInTimeForXMASDecember 27, 2012 at 10:07 AM

      IIRC, I have read here that the AUB are against the Browns participating in the show. So Kody decided to "do" his own thing.

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  10. A little tidbit I saw on twitter, the teacher that we saw on the episode shot at the school, Mr. Guido tweeted to Aspyn to have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year in their new homes. So I would bet moving day is near. I would think this week so they don't have to pay another months rent in the rentals. I don't know how they got financing for these homes, but I am happy for the kids. Their parents have paraded their train wreck lives for all the world to see, having a nice home to live in is a small consolation prize for these kids.

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    1. The poster from LV said she spotted some of them moving yesterday, I think it was on the previous thread. She even saw Kody!

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  11. Thanks for the history! That would have been interesting to learn on the show but nooooo...it has to be all about Kodouche driving/whining and his 4 goofy wives. I never believed his story about how he "suddenly" became interested in polygamy- he's such a bad liar. It's so strange how he avoids discussing the true history or the actual religion in detail- isn't he supposedly dedicated to teaching us all about plygdom?

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    1. I don't necessarily find Kody's story of how he discovered polygamy implausible. I spent some time in the LDS church as a child, because my parents converted when they moved to SLC for jobs in the late 80's. Polygamy wasn't widely discussed in the missionary meetings, and LDS friends who have been Mormon from birth have little idea about the early Mormon Church and its relationship to polygamy.

      It's entirely plausible (and even probable) that Kody grew up knowing that Brigham Young was an ancestor without knowing much, if anything, about polygamy. Talking with a Mormon about polygamy is a bit like the Monty Python sketch about Germany being on vacation during WW II when the tour guide is asked about what happened during those years.

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    2. I think it's all very family-specific. My family is LDS and church history, polygamy included, was very much discussed, at length, in my family. In fact, we had a family reunion of the descendants of my great-great grandfather at BYU and when you signed in (there were over 500 people in attendance) you had to sign in under your great-great grandmother's name. There were films and slide shows about church history for the kids, and genealogy displays and readings from various relatives from their books about church history for the adults. We were all very steeped in the history of the church, as well as the history of Utah, and our family's part in it.
      Maybe my family is a bunch of prideful elitists, but I still find it hard to believe that Grody is totally unfamiliar with his family's history. And if Grody grew up knowing that he was an ancestor of Brigham Young and knew nothing about polygamy, that, to me, says that he lacks basic curiosity.

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    3. Even when he was LDS - they have the family history, even online. They show the multiple wives from the ancestors. If LDS want to say they didn't know it, well, they also change the rules on the Adam doctrine and how Joseph Smith was a scammer of people with his magic stones looking for fortune before he "became" a false prophet. Seems they change their religious views then still want to claim they are Mormon and the others are not. It's all messed up if you ask me.

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  12. This episode made me laugh. Angry Kody looked like BOOG, the bear from Open Season... with the tiny and ridiculous back back leaving the trailer. Maybe the pretty-wife's packed some fish shaped cookies to save him in the wild :) I wonder how are the kids throwing a tantrum, if dad does it like that?

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  13. He has his ancestor's dumbass haircut and dead eyes

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    1. He reminds me of an angry hamster. When did the reverse flip of his hair happen? Recently his hair reminds me of my mid eighties class pictures. I wonder if he rotates which wife gets the round brush and hair dryer? Maybe, like his running shoes, he has his favorite brush and dryer at each house too.

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  14. Great addition to a great blog, and as we can see this clan of nitwits goes through life without a care in the world and expects the rest of the world to bow at there feet with there constant whining , complaining, and telling the world were being prosecuted , feel sorry for me, I hope they all fall flat on there ass

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  15. Ive always found it a little odd that Kody converted from LDS to join AUB I know his parents converted first, but at nineteen or twenty, most kids have a mind of their own. He didnt have to follow them. I feel like he saw his chance to be with different women and said "a ha! Ill convert asap! Lol

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  16. I recently discovered one of my ancestors met Joseph Smith in Illinois and became one of his 'adopted' sons. My relative, his younger brother, widowed mother, and 3 sisters joined the early Mormon Church. All of the women, including the elderly mother, married John D. Lee. Lee was executed for his involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Both men kept detailed diaries, the contents of which can be found online. They were fond of photos, too, although photography was still relatively rare during this time period. It appears the Mormon's love genealogy, perhaps partly due to a practice where Mormons can baptize or 'seal' themselves to late ancestors. I'm not sure; it's all pretty mysterious to me. It's definitely far removed from my upbringing. However, because the Mormons keep such meticulous records, I easily traced this branch of my family tree back to Norfolk, England, 1584. I'm guessing the Brown family is keenly aware of their ancestry and their origins in the Mormon Church. It appears to be part of their doctrine. In short, I'm confident they were just playing us. I get the impression they want to focus on the lifestyle, not the religion. I don't buy either. I love this blog, by the way! It's very informative. I enjoy reading everyone's comments.

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    1. I agree with you American Woman - and Mr. Sister. LDS love their genealogy. They played us.
      That is great you found so much out on your family history, I wish I had that for mine!

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    2. Anonymous, the LDS church doesn't just have genealogy for their members. They track records for families from all walks of life. You can access their website and probably find your family tree at the very least. They gather data from all over the world.

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    3. Someone from my great great grandparents on one side of the tree must have joined the church, for there was a genealogy done. I must say, much of it was wrong, and you need to be careful when looking up genealogy from their site. Yes, they collect many records, such as census, etc., that are helpful. But they also put up all the members trees which many are not sound.

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    4. RE - the LDS' interest in geneology - if you can, check out a film documentary titled "New York Doll" - about bassist Arthur "Killer" Kane who was part of that early punk group (with David Johanssen). After he faded away from the music scene (and a very rocky road) he converted to LDS and spent the remainder of his life working in the LDS geneology center in Los Angeles. Very good film.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Doll

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    5. I agree, New York Doll was a very good documentary...sad at the end but still very good. I think the film illustrates why people can be attracted to the LDS church.

      Delete
    6. I did a little more research. My relative was an original volunteer for The Mormon Battalion, Company E. His name was Thomas Ezra Woolsey. He was the nephew of my paternal grandfather (7 times removed.) Thomas Woolsey was the father to 27 children. He lived to be 92 years old. It appears I'm likely related to nearly everybody.
      Word of Caution: Be careful what you dig for:)

      Delete
    7. Then I bet he was in Battle with Ebenezer Brown!

      Delete
    8. Oh, yes. They were both in the Mormon Battalion. Ebenezer Brown was in Company A. My relative was in Company E.

      Delete
  17. The history is very interesting and I can't understand why they would not study this. Kody and some of the "sister wives" have the same ancestors.

    This episode was very interesting to me because my husband, my 9 year old daughter, and myself are living full time and traveling in an RV right now. It is never a good plan to drive an RV that many miles in only three days. Depending on conditions you can not drive as fast as you can in a car. Duh! In their defense I never really knew this stuff until we got started. It was a very big learning curve for us. It's also more stressful driving. The most we have done in one day is about 9 hours and we were trying to get to a family funeral. Also, not a great idea to drive in wind like that especially if the awning is coming out.

    The drive looked pretty miserable. I agree with above posters that it could have been a great learning experience for the kids. I think it would have made it more interesting for them as well.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "It was a very big learning curve for us"... hmm you sound like Meri

      Delete
    2. Yes - wind is a BIG factor when driving an RV. Why they pushed the miles is beyond reason.

      Delete
    3. I'm nothing like Meri. I'm living in a 37 foot RV and I don't have a wet bar or sliding glass doors.

      Delete
    4. I think they pushed the miles because TLC/F8F gave them a flat budget for the trip with no exceptions...with THAT many people, plus hotel rooms (you don't think Robyn & Christine SHARED, do you? I don't!) plus gasoline on 2 RVs AND a minivan...the budget would get used up pretty darn quick.

      Delete
  18. I can't get over the fact that these idiots are "practicing" polygamy but never seem to know a darn thing about it. What belief system? They know nothing of the sordid history of polygamy - give me strength! When the water works started over the shoot out involving the serial adulterer I nearly passed out what with all the eye rolling and sighing. Did anyone do the math here. They had how long for vacation? I thought Janelle said she had a whole week of doing nothing. Nothing? A trip that took four days of grueling travel to get there and only one week of vacation? Ummm... are they planning to fly back? Beam me up Scotty, these people are nuts. Would it not have been cheaper, faster, easier, or more sensible to hire one bus with a driver? Collectively they have to be the most stupid herd of people on the planet. Back to the rule of polygamy. Yes, it is so sad that uninformed obviously selfish lazy sloths choose to live a life that degrades women and call that religion. That old expression keeps coming to my mind... you can roll a dog turd in powered sugar but it still ain't no cookie.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi dumbfounded: I'm guessing that the Browns already knew about the history of Mormon polygamy, but they didn't let on because they wanted their LDS tour guide to continue talking about it. The Browns wanted the TV audience to hear from a professional source that polygamy is an essential element of the Mormon religion.

      I'm in the minority here, but I really enjoyed this episode because the Browns finally copped to being Mormon, and why they're polygamous. This show had gone on for too many seasons with viewers wondering why this family lives the way it does, and this episode answered some of those questions.

      Delete
    2. Ummmmm no, I still don't understand why they live the way THEY do...in different homes and not as a family, being mean and mentally abusive to each other, why they cry so much, why they throw each other under the bus so many times, why the husband finds it so difficult to travel with his family "I'm trying my best to ride with each of my wives on this trip"...Oh brother! No he will ride in the car that has the camera rolling.

      Delete
    3. Great idea about renting a bus! We did that to drive to my dad's gravesite on the day of his funeral and there were about 20 in our group too (granted it wasn't 1600 miles away.) Plus with a potty on the bus, no hour-long potty stops!

      I agree, they said it would take 3 days to get there, but no talk of getting back. Gee, it must be nice to take "vacations" when you're not freakin' working!!!!

      Delete
    4. Hi Anonymous: I think your questions are more about why Kody's family has done such a terrible job at polygamy. You're right, those questions were not answered on this episode. I do think, however, that the show was good at explaining the basic premise of Mormon polygamy.

      Delete
    5. I agree, Magic @ 1:28. I also liked this episode and the fact that their religion was a focus.

      I am also a somewhat fan of the Brown family, and I appreciate the fairness this blog shows to all opinions.

      Delete
  19. Finding this ancestory issue very interesting, the Browns could've or should've
    besides history, studied geography on the trip. Born and raised in the Quad-city
    area of Illinois, I find the Nauvoo area to be interesting right on the river thus
    transportation north or south. No doubt the finale was filmed last summer and now in hiatus - no paycheck - what are they moving and furnishing their homes with?? Wonder if they socked away six months living expenses until the new season.
    Happy Holidays friends.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good point - geography also would make a good interesting show.
      Let's see, Family History, the wonderful diaries his ancestors left behind, religious history, anything besides Kody whining.
      His OBEY was a joke to me! He is no leader by any shape or form, and has no handle on his family. The women do, if anyone does. Take that back - the TEENS probably know more than the rest!

      Delete
  20. I'm concerned about Robyn's oldest son. Doesn't he have Asperger's? He cannot be thriving in the chaos of his day-to-day life, much less handling a trip like this with so much stimulation and little (if any) quiet time. It saddens me to think what Kody and Robyn are putting him through for the sake of money.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think many of us agree. This has to be a hard lifestyle for him, and the filming, etc. Much less her changing his name.

      Delete
    2. Can someone clarify something for me?
      Does the LDS church believe exactly the same Doctrine as the Fundamental Mormons - with the exception of having wives here on earth?

      Delete
    3. Is it a fact that she changed his name? If so, when and what evidence is there? I'm curious!

      Delete
    4. Now this is just from memory--
      Seems that he used to be called David (his first name)
      When she got divorced she started calling him Dayton, or as she says it DA-TUN.
      David was his father's name, I think.

      Delete
    5. Once it was stated on the show that this boy has Asperger's I have wondered about that too.
      Really, it must be hell for him to live in that environment.

      If he is getting any counseling or therapy at all, then that notion would surely have been presented. Or if his mother has done *any* research at all into Asperger's she too would know that the chaos, lack of privacy and unpredictability of their crazy life could be extremely difficult for that boy to cope with.

      And what a missed opportunity for all the Brown adults to perhaps have come off a little less stupid and a micro bit less self-absorbed if an episode had included a couch chat about them being aware and considerate of their children's individual or special needs.

      But how stupid am I to even think the Browns could ever pull off being aware of anything.... but trips, wet bars, "moving on up," etc, etc....????

      Delete
    6. Brigham's Dead EyesDecember 26, 2012 at 3:00 PM

      @Anon 12/26/12 10:40AM - It depends on the fundamentalist sect. The LDS doesn't teach the Adam-God Doctrine, which some fundamentalists consider essential. The LDS also doesn't teach the plural marriage doctrine, at least overtly. There's also the issue with race and priesthood. The LDS now teaches that men of all skin colors can hold the priesthood whereas some fundamentalists hold that only white men are able to hold the priesthood.

      Delete
    7. What is the Adam-God Doctrine?
      And just because the LDS doesn't teach polygamy, they still believe it will be in the afterlife, right?

      Delete
    8. With is special needs - he would get assessment and placement within the schools, along with disability help from the state. With Robyn being a single mother- still wondering if the other children would not receive state insurance or food benefits as well.

      Delete
    9. It infuriated me when the news came out Robyn changed his name. People with AS have difficulty with any change at all. To change his name- his very IDENTITY- had to be horrible for this poor young man. That she did it to "distance" herself from her ex-husband/father of the boy just illustrated to me how very selfish and self-centered Robyn is. It's not about what's best for YOU- it's about what's best for your CHILD, especially a child with a disability. How ironic that she could quickly change his name (and can find time for manicures and "designing" crap jewelry) but hasn't seen fit to legally change her last name from that of her ex-husband.

      Delete
    10. Run, Plyglets, Run!December 27, 2012 at 7:35 PM

      I thought Sullivan was her maiden name. Her first husband was a Jessop and I'm assuming that would still be their children's surname. I don't know how involved Jessop is with his kids, but I'd be pretty surprised if he'd let Kodouche legally adopt them. That wouldn't be good for his planet.

      Delete
    11. Although I have read people here and on message boards writing that David/Day-un has Asperger's...I think she just said he is on the Autism spectrum. Not that that makes handling chaos & crowds any easier, just a footnote. Autism is a wide range of diagnoses, Asperger's is one specific diagnosis on the spectrum. Curious which it really is!

      Delete
  21. Interesting comments! Laughing at the poster above that said the show could have been modeled after Oprah and Gail's colonization! Since it was about the Mormon history and religion, why not made it like the genealogy show, "Who Do You think You Are?"
    Why not, you say? Because their trees would be so intertwined, those poor kids would be scared to death!

    ReplyDelete
  22. I am finding the show is becoming boring. So much anger between Janell and meri! And who can blam janelle. Meri is less mature than most of the children and such a whining, narcissistic bawl bag, it makes me wanna smack her. Christine is so jealous of Robyn it is palpable. Kody, obviously, prefers Robyn, but he'll soon have a new wife to make him feel manly and she can sit around trying to stifle her anger by overeating. Kody should be in jail and those kids welfare should be closely scrutinized by outside authorities. If even one of those children continues this lifestyle it will be a true tragedy. The adult browns are so enamored with their own celebrity they don't realize we watch them as we would monkeys in a zoo...purely for entertainment. I hope the Las Vegas authorities send them packing.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Wow - I confess I couldn't read the entire history, but am I wrong in saying that Kody and all four women share the same ancestors? Isn't this mixing of the family gene pool a bit on the dangerous side?

    Also, Meri and her "schedule" on this trip...unless she's willing to help wake up and mobilize ALL the kids, she has no business setting the family's schedule. When she said something like "Well, I have no problem leaving at 7:30," it was the height of insensitivity to the women who have to corral five or six kids into the Brown Party Bus to get the show on the road. And the fact that none of the other women called her out on it makes me think that they've all learned that when Meri ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. What a crummy way to live.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What the history basically shows is that Kody has what many of us would like to have. Diaries and well written account of his family history, that were not even discussed in the show. He mentions Brigham Young, yet never mentions he shares an ancestry with him, which could have been much ore interesting.

      Let's face it, the Mormon's - all of them, LDS, FLDS, you name it, think that they are direct descendants of Jesus, who according to their blasphemy, had three wives. So I'd say they are all related in many ways, keeping it straight would be the hard part.

      Delete
    2. "When she (Meri)said something like "Well, I have no problem leaving at 7:30," it was the height of insensitivity to the women who have to corral five or six kids...."

      laurakaye, I thought the same thing !!!
      Meri, you really are quite the self-centered and self-righteous bitch.

      Delete
    3. In the past Meri has also claimed that she does as much childcare as the other wives. What a load of crapolla!

      Delete
    4. The other wives probably don't want Meri to take care of their kids - she won't let them wreck the house, or let them pick on Robyn's kids and she makes her kid actually go to school.

      Delete
  24. Several of the Browns are tweeting a picture of Kody in a mask that someone made with their Sister Wives logo on it. I must say . . . Kody has never looked better.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I don't know why Christine thinks "obey" is "a four letter word." Every AUB woman has to promise to "obey the law of [her] husband" in the "OB"/"Ordinance building"/AUB temple. I don't think Kody was joking about it either.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Back to the subject of the museum allegedly denying the Browns admission due to them being polygamists:

    This was brought up at another forum - I am surprised that I didn't think of it myself!!!

    "That would be a violation of federal law. Business owners can't refuse service to anyone based on age, gender, national origin, disability, or religion. If you think your state has a law that trumps federally protected statuses, you're wrong. A business owner can keep someone out for not wearing a shirt, but he can't keep someone out for being a Muslim, or for having dark skin, or for walking with a cane.

    If that weren't the case, a business owner could set up a whites-only/no-blacks-allowed restaurant in your state. But I guarantee you won't see a restaurant like that, because it's against the law. If business owners could refuse service to anyone for any reason, then a business owner could refuse service to someone in a wheelchair if he wanted. But not only can he not do that, he is legally required to have a wheelchair ramp and a wide enough door so the wheelchair can get in. That doesn't vary by state."

    SO...

    we have a blurred-out name on a museum - so people would automatically assume it was a Mormon history museum rather than a county historical museum founded by a NON-LDS.

    Kody is out and out lying, or there's some (VERY) creative editing going on when they say they weren't allowed in because of being plyg.

    If I was the proprietor of the museum I'd be sending out a public statement, giving the TRUTH as to why the Browns were (allegedly) not allowed in.

    AND would like to hear what the tour guide has to say...hmmm

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. DJ,
      Yep, now that you mention it, I did notice that blurred out signage on the building too. Hmmm...is right !!!

      Also, I think on the other thread somebody who lives in the town did suggest that the building may not have been opened that day or that time of day.

      Delete
    2. Yup if you scroll up a ways on this thread, I copied/pasted that particular comment.

      I'm guessing the museum proprietor had, and maybe still has, absoultely no clue that 1) the browns were in town at all; 2) who in fact the Browns are (trust me, most of the people I KNOW don't know WTF I'm talking about when I mention Sister Wives or Kody Brown); 3) that they wanted to see the museum...etc.

      I'm not going to give the tour guide the benefit of the doubt whatsoever that he wasn't in on this whole LIE that the Browns were not permitted entry due to their plyg-ness.

      Delete
    3. Long time reader first time blogger, love what you people do here, but that is a very interesting take.

      Delete
  27. I don't think Kody was kidding either, he has been sitting on that couch with a glare lately that has really been giving me the "hee bee gee bee's"...I mean, seriously Christine has been speaking her mind for a few episodes lately and he looks at her with such a piercing look

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I love that Christine has been speaking up. It makes for interesting viewing as Kody just looks at her with a "who the hell are you?" look on his face! And when he said "I just want my family to obey" was he trying to be like Joe Darger? If so he would fail miserably as his family would all laugh at him. He really doesnt understand he is a joke in every sense of the word.

      Delete
    2. I agree; I was happy to see Christine become more animated and less resigned to the situation. Much more lively and spunky, like the Christine we met in the very first episode. I suspect she is completely off the depression meds now and feeling good. Which is good.
      I hope the blog and new trainer/training schedule does wonders for Janelle's confidence, too. I suspect she is planning maybe not her escape, but at least planning to STAY in that house FOR SURE, even if the others lose theirs.

      Delete
    3. Just a thought_ I agree with you about Kody's glare. When I had cable and watched the show regularly, I was so used to his wicked eyes and nasty demeanor towards the non-favorites, that I didn't notice it so much. But now that I only have the pics and vids on this site to go by occasionally, the look on his face when Christine speaks is APPALLING. Scary. It seems to go deeper than just an annoyance with her and is NOT how I would want a stranger to look like while I speak, much less my HUSBAND! It's a look of HATE.

      Delete
  28. Something just occurred to me during this episode. In this religion, a women is suppose to have as many babies as she physically can and the man tries to have as many wives as possible.

    So JS had 33 wives--no way he could keep all of them pregnant by himself!! That is the reason to have brother husbands, to step up and help a brother out. I'm sure he had no problem sexing his favorite wives, but older ones, less attractive wives or ones he'd grown tired of, and the non-sweet variety of wives can be shared with the brother husbands. That is, when the burden of impregnating all those women became too great.

    Wow! Just wow!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How else can that religion keep growing???

      Delete
  29. FYI

    Blogger may be having issues posting comments. If you are unable to post your comment, please drop us an email - please include what type of pc and browser you're using.

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  30. SW is getting too boring SW. Kody as usual showed his inability to manage his family. And the obey comment was just ridiculous.
    I'm not sure why I even watch anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  31. It amazes me how little these people know about their own prophet and religion. These were things that I ready knew and I don't associate with any Latter Day Saints movement.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unless of course someone is their great great great great great great grandfather... That's about all they know. It's just amazing to me that they follow this prophet and don't even know how many wives he had.

      Delete
  32. Kody has worn a brown shirt with the emblem/design on the left top. (our right). I am assuming it's designer or something. Anyone know?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Pretty sure it says, "We're plygs!"

    ReplyDelete
  34. Now that TLC has a new show starring Pete Rose, yes that guy who disgraced baseball never to be allowed in the hall of fame, can any of us believe ONE word that the Browns utter,even Discovery Channel with there Amish Mafia, were seeing the dumbing down of America a hour at a time

    ReplyDelete
  35. The Pete Rose show already sounds like a train wreck - and I will watch every minute of it. We met Pete in Las Vegas, and he is one of the funniest, nicest people when it comes to interacting with the public.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Growing up in Pittsburgh and with the Cincy Reds as an arch rial of our Pirates, I always knew about the great slugger, Pete Rose, wars and all. but last year, I was in LV and saw him standing outside a sports store with a shirt that read "Pete Rose" and nobody around him. I thought that was kind of sad, even though he made some bad choices. glad to hear that he is nice. I am sure that the Browns will be one of the first guests since they now symbolize LV!

      Delete
  36. If you do a search and read anything from when Kody and Robyn got married he is identified as David. Whatever his legal name is - it is WEIRD to call a kid by one name then another name *especially* when he has Asperger's.

    Many people have commented on how the wives are polygamy royalty. Obviously they all KNEW what Kody's family tree was before they married him. It's all about the bloodlines, isn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  37. His name is David Jessop, Jr.

    I suspect neither Grody nor Sobyn were happy about having a child named after an ex-husband whose family was ALSO polygamy royalty.

    So they changed his name to something which Sobyn can't pronounce correctly, "Dayton" - when she says it, the "t" is silent.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's the worst part. If you're going to pick a name, at least pick one you yourself can pronounce. Dayton is not Day-un. Poor kid. Plus that's pretty close to Paedon, Christine's son.

      Delete
    2. Kim, I did not see your post when I posted above about changing the name of a person with Asperger's Syndrome. It is more than weird- in my view it's actually quite destructive. It would be bad enough to change the name of a neurotypical child, but to do so for a child with Asperger's Syndrome shows a complete lack of regard for the nature of her son's disability. Either she is completely ignorant when it comes to Asperger's Syndrome (in which case shame on her for not bothering to educate herself about her child's condition) or she blatantly chose to ignore the effect it could have to change his name (in which case shame on her for being so selfish.)

      Delete
  38. Believe it or not, even though I don't consider myself to be a big old dummy, (just a small one), I wasn't sure about the definition of passive aggressive. Therefore, I am going to copy and paste this from the Urban Dictionary, because it states that it's oft' misused. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=passive%20aggressive Of which definition are some, on this blog, speaking when they claim Meri is this way? I've ALWAYS been confused, in terms of getting a true grip on what in the (*&^%#& it REALLY means, and am still not totally clear on the situation, even after reading the different definitions. HELP. HOLD ME!!

    Lisa H.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, my mother in-law is the exact definition of this word.

      Delete
  39. I'm not at all surprised by Kody & Co.'s lack of knowledge about their own faith and even their family history. They are hardly introspective people. A great number of people of faith really have very little idea about their own faith beyond what the preacher tells them from the pulpit. And if Kody himself is the priesthood holder, well...

    ReplyDelete
  40. Maybe he's been called Dayton since birth. Many kids are called by something that is not their legal name. A friend of mine exclusively calls her child by his middle name, in school he is called by the middle name as well. His name is different on all legal docs. Any proof that Kody and Robyn changed it?

    ReplyDelete
  41. All this family has done for me is make me realize even more than I did before that there is absolutely no reason to practice polygamy! It's 2012 and even if there ever was a "need" for it......those days are gone! This family does it to gain
    attention and feel "special".......it's too bad because individually the women in this family would do just fine on their own.....(even if they don't think they would)...

    ReplyDelete
  42. The Museum issue - don't you think it was the sheer numbers thatset the
    reversal issue? One looks out and sees two dozen people would wonder if
    its a school class or scout troop. Then set them freely to roam - I believe
    I'd also set limits, maybe a group of six to eight at a time with their parent or leader. This history is certainly interesting - have checked out and read
    several books re RLDS. Perhaps if they research more than six to eight generations, they would find everyone related to each other.

    ReplyDelete
  43. http://kibbe.wordpress.com/about/#

    This is the Web address for the Kibbe Museum, which is right down the road from the courthouse where Joseph Smith was killed. It also lists the hours T-F, as a previous poster who lives near mentioned-- so I'm pretty sure its the one TLC pictured (from the outside :).

    Nothing on this Web site mentions the exclusion of any group. I'd imagine they did not wish to be connected with the film. Certainly a free choice of any non-profit. If they made that decision, so did the Brown's public school.

    Anyway, the page I've posted it not the home page but if you scroll down about mid-way there is an amusing rap by some farm boys, I thought you might enjoy. :)

    Lots of pics for plygs and non who'd like a peek inside the museum.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My county has a wonderful historical museum - they can be so interesting!

      A browse through the Kibbe website clearly indicates that the exhibits concern far more than JS and Mormon history - I do hope the proprietor comes forward to explain what *really* occurred.

      Delete
    2. I've been wondering why the Browns didn't go to the Mormon run visitor's center in Nauvoo. We haven't been to Nauvoo in 10 years or so but last time we were there the reconstruction of the town and homes was wonderful. Nauvoo looked like they were building a midwestern Williamsburg. The buildings were filled with antiques, tools, etc. and the docents, who were summer volunteers from Utah, did a fantastic job of teaching Mormon history. The visitor's center had great films and info about the Mormon experience. TLC showed a shot of the reconstructed temple but almost nothing of the rest of the reconstructed historical Nauvoo.

      We're not Mormon but could have spent a several fun days looking, reading and listening.

      Delete
  44. I cannot stand Kody and his attempt to be funny and cool. He thinks he is a game show host with the whole "NAUVOO, ILLINOIS!!!!!!" bit. yuck yuck yuck

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The same fatuous voice he uses in the opening credits. Ugh!

      Delete
  45. First off, I am super impressed and with the help of ancestry, I got no where near the info you did. Do you think that some of his history he didn't know about. Also, I think a history of family polygamy would not prepare someone for living polygamy. I know Kody's dad added a second wife, but I think it was after Kody was already grown.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I seem to remember Kody's brothers (or was it only one brother) speaking of being raised in polygamy. Are they older or younger than
      Kody?

      And why do I recall three wives of Winn being mentioned? Does anyone else recall this?

      Some solid dates to pin facts on would help.

      Delete
    2. This piece I just wanted to relate Kody's family heritage to IL.
      Winn has 3 wives.
      He is married to:
      Genielle Tew Brown, Kody's mom
      Cheryl Schriver: Janelle's mom
      Unnamed wife (we resepct her wishes of privacy)

      Video: http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/sister-wives-winn-browns-loving-family.html

      ebenezer's Ranch now Winn Brown's: http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/double-dollar-ranch.html

      Delete
    3. Thank you, Mister Sister.
      I enjoyed the history review.

      I'm still curious because Kody once commented that his knowledge of polygamy first came from Meri's father. His own family seems to know more than he let on. But why would he play these games with the truth?

      Do you know how long the third wife's been in the family?

      Delete
    4. Kody's father and mother went into polygamy while he was on a Mormon mission. This would be before he met Meri. Then he began going to some of his fathers new churches gatherings-hence meeting Meri.

      Winn married the unnamed wife around the time Kody was on the mission, or 18.

      Kody's father met Janelle's mother Cheryl when Janelle and Kody were dating and she (Cheryl) went up to Montana to meet the family, and actually married Winn before Janelle and Kody married.

      IMO, it's all a crock that they knew nothing about polygamy. Come on, the Mormon church was based on it! There are so many lies going on, they can't keep them straight.

      Delete
    5. I think this is what bothers me the most. I don't mind watching the show, but when they stumble over and/or contradict something they have said previously...that is when really gets my goat. I actually didn't watch this last episode (it's just not there for me to make a point anymore)...And if does go down the tubes...this blog can easily change its name to something else :))))) lol

      Delete
    6. Those older posts were interesting.

      Delete
  46. At this time of the year and on Christmas I thought this story might be the one of the little family on their journey to find a place to give birth to a babe.

    Instead we get the story of a bunch of pligs who could be heroic and aren't. Their lifestyles guarantee confusion and intermarriage (because there really is no other choice) and the dumbing down of the adherents. Shame.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Kibbe Museum has two FB pages. One just has some photos up (and you can see how small the place is-you can see why they ask for parties of more than 20 people to make reservations 2 weeks in advance) They also close at 4pm.
    The second FB page says Kibbe Museum Government Organization and allows posts. Although it doesn't look like anyone has posted there for a long time, why doesn't someone (CJ??) post on there and just ASK why they didn't allow the Browns into their museum?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Joseph Smith
    Born 1805
    Died 1944 at 39

    And was mourned by his beloved wives ... well, the jury (history) is out on this. Which is to say, there are 33 wives on record, but some LDS (and even some AUBs) turn up their noses at counting the wives who were "otherwise" married.

    Is Joseph Smith not "otherwise" married (to Emma)? Joseph shares his revalation-- the Doctrines and the Covenants Section 132.
    Section 132 Doctrines and Covenants

    According to the Web page introduction:
    "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

    (ie., retroactive to Smith's marriages previous to 12 July 1843.)


    Well, Doubters (LDS??), I find myself kinda scratchin' my head. But you gotta' understand (as Robyn would say), I was raised Lutheran. Our books of revalation stopped at Revalation (Last book in the King James Bible :).

    I can see why Kody and bunch (Mormon fundamentalists) think the LDS has some s'plainin to do.

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    Replies
    1. Agreed. I'm not sure how the LDS can pretend it isn't so. Talk about picking and choosing.

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    2. There is so much more. The Mormons believe Jesus was married with three wives and they all descend from him. All Christians in their view are an abomination. They hide many of their beliefs. It all evolves around sex. Does that sound like a Godly religion? It sickens me. Just my opinion.

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    3. Absolutely. I was raised LDS. My ancestors crossed the plains, settled in Southern Utah after being ordered to do so by Brigham Young, took multiple wives and then disavowed polygamy to become mainstream mormons. I had a testimony of the true prophet Joseph Smith and all the prophets who followed. Then I started reading some of the history and my bullshit detector went off. It is a really hard and painful thing to "lose your religion." I feel for these ladies because they believe and that is why they are living this painful and let's face it CRAZY lifestyle. But the truth is they, and a lot of other men and women, were duped by a horny skirt chaser from the 19th century who I now believe, came up with this revelation out of convenience for being an adulterer and a womanizer.

      I honestly have to say I still love many of the things I was taught by the Mormons growing up. For the most part, these are great people who want to be good neighbors, good citizens, good parents, good at their jobs, etc...but polygamy to me is the "revelation" that proves Joe Smith was not on the up and up. it kills me to say this too because so much of what he said is amazing and a big part of me still wants to believe that the B of M is true, but...God gave me a brain and I expect he wants me to use it.

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    4. Dear Jack Mormon,
      I feel for you and others that have come to realize that their "home" religion was based on... well, a crazy man. Be happy that you are free of all that and can believe in Jesus Christ and learn the truth.

      I am trying to learn the Mormon religion, and it is so complicated and out there - I can't wrap my head around it.
      Seer stones were the rage of con men back in that day. From finding gold to healing the sick. I wonder what it was about this man that led so many astray. May I ask, how can they change the doctrines? Like, now, what, black men were not black because of their sin? I get so confused.
      I pray you will find on your journey of faith true happiness, and appreciated your story.

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  49. Hey Mister Sister and SWB!
    Check this out:
    Recap: Sister Wives: For Time and Eternity TVGASM
    They linked this post to their review!!!
    http://www.tvgasm.com/home/recap-sister-wives-for-time-and-eternity.html


    GOOD JOB!!!!

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    Replies
    1. That is GREAT. this blog is getting recognition again! I remember it being sited before. I think many bloggers come here to read. Here, there are FACTS. Love this blog, keep up the good work everyone!!!!

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    2. Terrific. Glad to see this blog get recognition.

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    3. Me too! Glad to see that others are reading here. Great genealogy. I bet you have much more up your sleeve, can't wait till you spill it all!

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  50. Great job Mister Sister and CJ!!! Your blog puts TLC to shame. You actually do research and have the FACTS. Silly question, forgive me, but is your writing on your blog protected (i.e. copyrights) in any way? Just curious how that works. I know you put a ton of time and energy into it for all of us. I appreciate all your efforts! Thank you! yg

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  51. Hi all. Long time reader, usually don't post. I was just on SW Facebook and it looks like someone posted that they emailed the museum.
    It turns put that Kody and crew were allowed to enter, but not with the cameras. They were not turned away for being plygs. A few of the fans are calling for TLC/SW to apologize for defaming the museum.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good! I actually had a blonde moment where I thought, how could it not be true if TLC allowed it to be said?
      Nothing seems to be true with this group. Thrilled to hear the truth has been discovered! I hope TLC has to run an apology - with Kody being the one saying it. So tired of their lies. Thanks for that information!

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    2. Where? I didn't see it on the facebook I went to.

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    3. Thinking back to the house episode, where in one instance they were only given three options of countertops. It really leads me to think that someone, somewhere, is paying, and gave them limited (price) options.

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    4. Hi. I'm not sure how to post Facebook links, or if that's allowed, since in on my phone. But it's on the main TLC SW page, under the "recent posts by others" section. The post was yesterday at 11:12 am. Maybe someone with more tech savvyness can post it? I hope you find it.

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    5. That was my "take" when I was watching the show---that it was the TV CAMERAS which weren't allowed in---although Kody was very careful not to say that and imply it was because of who they were. And for that, I will have to give TLC a "fail" for allowing that implication to go forward.

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    6. They were there on a Monday. Check museum site, they aren't open on Mondays. Kody is full of KRAP as usual, he just wanted a chance to say 'because we're plygs, right?' and then TLC ran that promo over and over and over because they're also full of krap. Museum could NOT discriminate against religious beliefs, we all know that. Do they think we're that stupid?? They were there on Monday and were allowed to go thru the museum, no cameras. Just say that then.

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    7. My memory is foggy - How do we know they were there on a Monday for sure? Let's get all the facts together so SWB can post them!

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    8. AHA!! Thank you!!!

      And Kramer the Tour Guide (my name for him) was IN on it because he AGREED with Kody when he said that it was because they were plygs!!! Uh huh yup!!!

      I wouldn't hold my breath for an apology. Kody is a LIAR!

      Delete
  52. Note to ARCHERGIRL78 - please send me an email - I am ready to get back on the genealogy train. I have misplaced your email address!

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  53. I liked this episode. Even though they are naive about Joseph Smith taking wives from other men (do some research it's easily googled!), I felt this was one of the very first times that they talked a little bit about their religious beliefs and why they practice plural marriage. This is what many of us have wanted to hear. They all seem extremely uneducated about their ancestry and the history of their own church but at least they talked about it some.

    Things I noticed: Janelle has checked out so much that she was rarely even on the show. She thought a week of doing 'nothing' (hello, driving an RV across country in three days is 'nothing'?) sounded 'great'. I think she is just saying what sounds best because she has checked out from this crazy family. She is focusing on herself, her health and fitness and seems to be asserting herself more (she has a blog now on the TLC site). I think she is thinking through a plan where she gets out of this family in the next 5 years. Christine, on the other hand, has obviously decided that the heck with what Kody says, she is going to express herself. I think she may also be planning a different type of 'escape' (down the road after the show ends) - I think she hopes to be released from Kody and reassigned to another, more worthy and godly man such as Joe Darger. Christine doesn't seem to be so jealous anymore, just over it all.

    I do have a question though, in the scene where they are learning about the history of polygamy from the man with the wonderful hair, Meri is holding/rocking an infant in a blanket. They later showed Sol and he just seems to big to be swaddled like that - that just seemed off. I wonder if Tara had a baby and needed somewhere to escape to and that is how she ended up with Robyn? I just thought that was a little suspect.

    And finally, Kody lamenting about how potty breaks take an hour. You have 17 kids!!! When you have a huge family, even simple things become big ordeals. Does he not know how much work and time that many children take?

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    Replies
    1. Carol, These people are delusional It's as if they quit any emotional growth at the age of 15.

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    2. Meri is holding/rocking an infant in a blanket. They later showed Sol and he just seems to big to be swaddled like that

      In all the pictures I've seen (including some provided by SWBers) the only baby Meri holds is Sol. And when he's sleeping he or being breastfed they cover him up. This was filmed around June so he was probably around 7 months old.

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  54. Mister Sister and Cynical Jinx,

    You both deserve *tons of credit* and kudos for running such a credible and factual blog.
    Along with the actual *time* you both obviously give from your lives to maintain this blog, you provide documented facts, always backing them up with real time research.
    It is MUCH appreciated !!!

    This latest one is very interesting.
    And even more interesting is that KodyKlown and his Klownettes surely know at least the overview of these facts, yet they choose to pretend they are just simple, plyg neophytes without a clue, and are just trying to survive in a cruel, plyg-hating world. (cue the tears)
    What they are is a group of people lacking scruples or convictions !!!

    And shame on TLC for their participation in all the SW lies and ploys in these shows !!!
    Including this latest one stating that the museum would not allow them in because they are plygs.

    ReplyDelete
  55. "And finally, Kody lamenting about how potty breaks take an hour. You have 17 kids!!! When you have a huge family, even simple things become big ordeals. Does he not know how much work and time that many children take?"

    Really? Have you seen ANYTHING on this series that would indicate that Kody knows anything about managing a large family? IMO, Joe Darger would have said, "We're stopping for 15 minutes for a potty break. Period." And they all would have been back. He'd also have gotten more than 4 hours of sleep a night, because he would have it worked out ahead of time where everyone was sleeping.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have not understood that at all. Wasn't that what RV's were for? I know they can potty along the way!

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    2. I wouldn't be surprised if Kody told them NOT to use the onboard potties - because he would have to drain and service them! And I would imagine they would fill up rather quickly with that Krew!

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  56. LDS can't have it both ways---following the Bible PLUS all the Mormon literature (Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, etc.). While a mere man, Joseph Smith, proclaimed marriage was "eternal," God proclaims otherwise: Matthew 22:23-30
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    Sadducees Ask About the Resurrection
    23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”

    29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

    Apparently, following Joseph Smith is more important to LDS than following God.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry, I do not have time to look up a source for this ... but the Mormons have visited that thought. The solution? Celestial marriage (ie., theirs) continues forever along the road to becoming gods and eternal pregnant celestial wives. Temporal marriage (non-mormon) endures "'til death do us part". Then the post death, outside-celestial-marriage people-in-heaven, become like-angel beings and wait on the gods and goddess-moms who are busy ruling planets and making babies.

      Really.




      Delete
    2. It is all very sickening. VERY. IMO, so what if the LDS are not practicing it here on earth, they still have a religion based on a false prophet, and believe they will be on planets having eternal babies. Maybe they should read the NT and revelations to see how wrong all of this is.
      All from a guy who got all his "learning" from looking in a hat!

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    3. Hi, SoilentGreen, that may be so (the celestial marrige thing), but God does not "parse out" different kinds of "marriage" in the Bible...so it is nothing more than "make-believe" on the part of LDS and is, again, not in line with anything God has to say in the Bible. But, of course, that doesn't seem to bother LDS. Not sure why I'm blabbing on about this other than it bespeaks to me a lack of critical thinking on the part of LDS---and that is always an irritant to me. Probably why I chose MrSpock as my blog name! :-)

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    4. Mr Spock,
      The factor which speaks strongest to me from your posts is your faith. There is a certain peace which touches my soul when words are grounded as yours are.

      Thank you for speaking to this, and I will say no more. You have said all that counts in this matter.

      Delete
    5. There are many LDS churches here in Arizona. While they are full of good people, the bottom line is, "What does the Bible say?"

      "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18 (NIV)

      There's nothing in the Bible about men earning their own planets.

      Delete
    6. TOUCHE Mr. Spock and Soilent Green !!

      Delete
    7. "Revelation 22:18 (NIV)"
      A man wrote that, too.

      Delete
  57. If there lies were like dollars they would be broke by now,

    ReplyDelete
  58. So, they take this trip to Nauvoo, IL because it is where there spiritual heritage is. Where Joseph Smith lived and died. They had a tour guide that took them around this historic area and explained things to them. He was of the LDS faith, which is the main stream religion we see today that do not practice polygamy. On the show, Robyn explains, "that because "our church" holds onto all of the teachings that were originally revealed by Joseph Smith. Sometimes we run into people who talk about these early years in a very vague way and that it is very discouraging , because they want to explain why they are doing what they are doing to their kids." So right after that they go into the tour guide explaining some more history that is important not to the LDS Mormons but to the type of religion Cody and his family practice. So the tour guide starts telling them," Hyrum Smith was walking past this certain area that he points to (the tour guide) out one day and Brigham Young was walking past there in the other direction and Hyrum say's to Brigham, "I know that Joseph has been telling you things that he won't tell me. "I want you to tell me the truth, is there polygamy going on?" This was Joseph Smith's own brother, who did not know. So Brigham Young told Hyrum smith all about polygamy and how it was being practiced there in Nauvoo, but very secretly. Hyrum went to Joseph the next day and said, " Brother Joseph, Brother Brigham has spilled the beans, he has told me about it. I know I have fought you long and hard on this kind of an idea but I am ready to be the lord's tool now. Hyrum suggested that Joseph Smith have one of the scribes write down the revelations which talks about polygamy, which is now doctrine/Covenant section 132. So Cody then say's on the show that, "his" understanding was that Joseph Smith was commanded by God to take plural wives. It's like woe, this is the craziest thing you ever brought together here. Did God tell you this or did you make this up? Well Cody Brown believes that God told him to do it." Now if that does not say it all right there I don't know what does. I personally think that this was a man made idea that these two guys came up with and use religion as an accuse to practice and justify it. I think these men just really liked women, a lot... and of course Cody is going to go a long and not question anything and want to think that Joseph Smith was inspired by God to do this, because he's got a good deal! Why would he want to change it.

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  59. This site is GREAT! Just found it a few days ago, and I've learned a lot from the posts and the comments.

    A few observations....

    It's terrible if they changed the name Robyn's son is called. As far as living in the chaos, he doesn't actually. They all have separate homes, and he has never lived with 16 other kids, just Robyn's kids.

    The polygamous family setting may actually be good for him socially. The other wives don't let their kids pick on him, and he may perceive the other kids as his friends. Logan and Hunter seem nice, and Dayton may have more "friends" at home than he's ever had before. (Just sayin...maybe not)

    I was very surprised at how well written the Brown book "Becoming Sister Wives" is. Got it from my library, and the wives are really articulate. Good book.

    I think Meri Is misjudged. I think Jenelle hates her, Christine hates everyone because of Kody marrying Robyn, and Meri helps Robyn a lot with her kids. I think it's Meri/Robyn vs. Jenelle/Christine.

    I think Jenelle has never been all there emotionally, but views are contributions to the family as financial. Christine somewhat of an airhead, and Robyn the favorite wife. Therefore, Meri sort of is the only rational adult around a lot of the time.

    I think being on reality shows pretty much brings out the worst in, and destroys, families.

    Mr. Dargar, and his wife actually respond to some comments on their facebook page. Haven't seen any responses to questions or comments on the Brown page.

    I don't think any of us should expect anything in the way of truth or real-ness from the channel that made Honey Boo Boo a star!

    Happy New Year to all

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    Replies
    1. Oh my goodness, I usually just read these but I had to post and say that I would never in my life use the words "Meri" and "rational" in the same sentence together... I do agree with you about reality shows destroying families though.

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  60. It just amazes me tho, how clueless the adults in this family are. Is it NOT amazing that none of the Brown adults had a grasp on how many wives JS had, nor BY? It's like the only thing they focus on is polygamy and they know nothing else, this guy is who you base your belief system on and you don't know how many wives he had and that he married women that were already married. If you were going to believe the book of Mormon, would you not investigate its writer just a tad? The more I watch the adult Browns, the more I see how pathetic they are in their own church history

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  61. BTW ~ I love this blog, It's very informative. I enjoy reading everyone's comments.

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  62. Good morning everyone
    I live in Australia and I've been watching Sister Wives online (we don't get it here in Australia). I found it by accident as I was scrolling through a particular website which I use to watch programs that are not shown on our television stations.

    I am sure polygamy does exist in this country but not to the extent of the U.S. It's not something that we hear about or see in the news at all.

    Personally I prefer having only one partner. I simply could not share my man with any other woman in a marriage like situation.

    From my perspective I find the show quite interesting. However aside from my curiosities I find it hard to wrap my head around how all the children get any real quality time with their father. I know he appears to be there all the time each day (apparantly Kody is not working) but with that many children how can any of them have much time at all with their father. That bothers me.

    I haven't been able to watch the Darger's special yet, but I did see them on Sister Wives and did some googling about them. Quite different from the Browns.

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    Replies
    1. The questions you have JenniJen, we all are trying to understand.
      The Dargers to seem to be much different than the Browns. We will see!

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    2. I live in Sydney and SisterWives does come on here, Thursdays 8:30-9:30 on Discovery Health channel (Foxtel ch 640). It has been on for at least 2 yrs, I no longer watch it just read this blog....much more entertaining,! :-)

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  63. I found this post fascinating. Thank you. maybe Kody's family should come here to read, and save all those miles!

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  64. Thank u for this detailed account. Is this information available for any and all? How does one find information like this? I know the LDS keep very good records but where does one find them?

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    Replies
    1. If you're speaking about genealogy records, yes - they are available to the public. Here's a good starting place for info: https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Introduction_to_LDS_Family_History_Centers

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    2. And OFTEN, wrong. Many are just ones LDS wanna bes put in to get into the church. Mine were very wrong, so do your own homework.

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  65. It didn't seem at the beginning of the show that the Browns talked about their religion at all. I still heaven't heard anything from them - only other people- about how their marriages are to be celestial and to be forever and forever. Does Kody get more power up in heaven, if he has still more wives and children? And does he still need more?
    Also I noticed that Janelle was shocked on their trip, and said when she heard that Joseph Smith were married to women that were married to other men, she made the comment that it "wasn't as if Joseph Smith was God, or anything, and he was just a man and prone to make some mistakes." Then why would they use their cult to make it sound how great Joseph Smith was and how they were to follow him, and follow the Pearl of Great Price if the man that wrote it was just another fallible man? The Bible is the infallible word of God. We don't need other book to help us understand it.

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  66. Excellent work. Learning so many new things. Kody seems to lie. He was clueless about this religion? shaking head. off to find. more great stuff!

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  67. Not sue if my comment went through. Great work. Certainly Kody knew about Polygamy, he looks like a liar.

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  68. Sure did. Come on, his grandmother was an Allred! Besides the fact his religion was based on the practice. Great work, Mister Sister. I know you have that genealogy and dread dragging it out, but I keep coming back and looking, hoping to see it soon.

    I was one of those suckers that believed Janelle. What a croc!~

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  69. Brigham Young is Kody's ancestor. His family didn't know a thing about polygamy, nahhh.
    Here is another fine example of their lies, deceit, and total BS.
    This is interesting. I so miss posts that have more beef.

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  70. A episode showing the faces of his elders and a short speech about what happened -cool. Better than Tears for Fears Robyn. She has dominated the entire show.

    ReplyDelete