(Reuters) - The U.S. Justice Department on Thursday sued two towns on the Utah-Arizona border that are dominated by a polygamist Mormon sect, citing religious discrimination and civil rights violations against residents who do not share the majority faith.
The lawsuit against the twin cities of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, said the towns and their joint police department and utility providers had allowed the sect to unduly influence the provision of public services, including policing.
Most of the residents of the towns are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a breakaway Mormon sect whose leader, Warren Jeffs, is serving a sentence of life plus 20 years in prison in Texas for raping two underage girls he wed in "spiritual marriages."
Please read the rest at: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/21/us-usa-polygamy-idUSBRE85K1QG20120621 -(Reporting By Lily Kuo; Writing by Cynthia Johnston; Editing by Paul Simao and Eric Walsh)
Here are some other posts about these these towns.
http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/returning-to-colorado-city-and-saying.html
http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/flds-community-said-to-be-purging.html
Thoughts?
Due to the job I had before being laid off recently, I am very familiar with these two towns.
ReplyDeleteMany on the police force in these towns are actually FLDS which is where the big problem comes in. I'm glad to see that the DOJ is filing suit and trying to fix the problem.
Not sure it will help, but it's a start. Thanks for posting this!
Your Welcome!
DeleteInteresting. Certainly not backing off. Sister Wives can say they are not FLDS, but ALL their basic principles are, including Joseph Smith, reading his book before the bible, etc.
ReplyDeleteI am GLAD to see the DOJ coming in!
AMEN! send in the Cavalry!!
DeleteAfter watching the rerun of Krody and wives on anderson it really brought home why this "lifestyle "so is aaagainst the law. Christine is an example of one of those kids grown up. It was if she was talking in the mirror. They are much closer toFLDS than they think. These "wives" just don't think it is haappening to them. Thats those other pligs, not us.
ReplyDeleteActually ALL of them except Janelle grew up that way. Meri's Dad was already married to a teenager by the time she was 6. He already had children with his second and third wives (both were married in their teens-but were "of age") by the time Meri was 8 years old. I'm not sure when he married the other two. Those are the 2 who are Christine's cousins and David Preston Jessops aunts/cousins--depending on how much you unwind the family wreath.
DeleteYes, and when you think about it, Janelle's ancestors were probably were into polygamy, working on it!
DeleteUtah mormon officials have chosen to be impotent and disinterested in prosecuting and stopping this abusive and felonious lifestyle. It took Texas to get Jeffs and it's going to be the Feds to shut those towns down as we know them. All the judges and police and elected officials are all FLDS and run the towns (they're really treated as one town combined) as a dictatorship and theocracy. Their "God" that rules the people is always a misogynistic and all-controlling abusive and all-powerful greedy and corrupt human male.
ReplyDeleteOne can only hope this is the beginning of the end of so many suffering behind those walls of secrecy and control.
I am glad to see maybe something will be done. It either is against the law or it's not. If the decide to allow it, will we like all the Muslims coming in and taking over? If we allow it, will there be welfare laws, also so they can't keep taking advantage of that? I read some great articles on the baby cemeteries on this blog, I believe K. Dee Ignatin wrote them, you should look them up. It's pathetic how they treat even their own!
ReplyDeletecurious as to how "all the Muslims" figure into this story at all???
DeleteOh, please. Sharia is not coming to a town near you any time soon, so stay on the topic of American born deviancy, Anon 2:48.
DeleteI think Anon 2:48 was referring to polygamy among Muslims and the second class status of women and children among extremist Muslim groups that resembles fundamentalist Morman polygamy.
Delete"Sharia is not coming to a town near you any time soon..."--Tell that to France and England. If you watch the documentaries, THE THIRD JIHAD and OBSESSED, you'll have a better understanding of what and how extremist Muslim groups are trying to do.
Excuse me Anonymous 2:48. What does the Muslims have to do with anything. Whether they bust up the polyg familes are not, they will still provide wellfare to those women. Many of them do not have the education or lifeskills to support themselves or their children. In many instances, they have more children than a minimum wage job would allow them money to pay for childcare. As against polyg as I am, I am not going to say bust polyg up but do not provide care for these children. And, yes, they are on welfare now, or most of them are and we would be fools to think one man can support several adults and bunches of children, but cutting their welfare is not going to create adherence to monogamy. It will just create a bunch of malnourished kids. The key to stopping polyg doesn't begin by hurting the children. And again, what exactly do the Muslims have to do with that?
ReplyDeleteSo a man should have 50 children because he can use welfare? It should be set up, I agree with you, that the children already here may be taken care of, BUT ANY MORE- there has to be some sort of system set up. Many of these Men high in the church could easily pay for their own, yet don't. It's well documented how the FLDS will take the welfare money from the wives, and leave them with very little.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Arab Muslims, not all, of course, but the rich, arrogant men really want to rule all countries. It's a whole sect that treat women like slaves, marry very young ones, and want to take over much more than we realize.
New anon. Still don't. Get the Muslim thing. Majority of Muslims are monogamous and the quran allows polyg, but says monogamy is better. Difference is polygs in Muslim don't get any privileges in the afterlife and it doesn't make them special spiritually. It was allowed (and limited) as an existing institution. You can criticize that, but it's vastly different than Mormon polyg and I still don't see the taking over the world.
Delete@Sheeri: I'm pretty sure that the number of Arab men who want to "rule all countries" is a very small percentage of the number of caucaasian, Christian men who already do just that. The huge wealth and numbers of the Saud Family alone could indeed take over the entire world IF THEY WANTED TO. Since, after 100 years, they haven't done this, I think we can all rest easy. Also, Arab Christians have exactly the same customs about marriage as muslims, with a very few exceptions that relate to the actual ceremony, and how the marriage contract is written--same general tradition of dowry, same general ages for bride and groom (bride usually about 8-12 years younger than the groom), same tendency to marginalize their women and treat them "like slaves". Regardless, your comment has nothing to do with polygamy.
DeleteBTW, I think one of the most amazing stories of survival while bing in polyg and her escape from polyg came from Carolyn Jessop. Even though she had a college education, the PTSD that she suffered from over the months after her escpae prevented her from getting a job. She had to take advantage of the welfare system. I also volunteer for a womens shelter where many of the women who come to the shelter are unable to start working right away. Whenever women or even men for that matter come from mental, physical, or sexual abuse, they are not able to function. Many of them are still playing games of manipulation where they use manipulation to get things. In their abusive relationships, they learned to read moods and figured out how avoidance technicques. They even used the abuse as means to get things for them or their children. Jessop said it well when she said that her husband liked having sex with her so she learned that by letting him have sex with her, she could expect some protection for her children.
ReplyDeleteI don't think our mental health folks have enough experience with women who have been in polyg relationships, so getting them out of those relationships are difficult. They are based upon religious realities so that women in children believe they are going to be persecuted by god. I don't think we can fully appreciate how devoted and how brainwashed these women are. The entire focus of polyg is to keep women under the men's control. That means taking away choice, taking away property, taking away control (even of their chidlren), and taking away their self esteem. Even though SW seem to be the opposite of the stereotype that we have of polyg women, if we really watch them and listen to them, they are exactly like those extreme fundlementalists. The women hate each other; they don't trust each other; they have all seen one or more wives getting preferrential treatment; they have seen one or more wife abuse their children; they are hurt by jealousy; and they go without while one or more wives get extra things.
Even Janelle, who was not raised polyg, has such low self esteem that she cannot see herself out of that family. Truthfully, Janelle was suffering with low self esteem when she entered the family. She admits that she was curious about the polyg lifestyle and I think she was trying to find a place in which she fit in. All of the wives are grotestquely overweight and all of them have facial blemishes that make up covers. I think Janelle's face is a little clearer than the others. So when we laugh and poke fun at the women, it is as if we are poking fun at abused women--which none of us would do. I am somewhat uncomfortable with the extremes this board goes towards fussing about the women. They are typical women with low self esteem and are being emotionally abused by a nacisstic (probably sociopathic) man. How are they any different from mongamous women in that situation?
They out themselves on TV, raking in the bucks and building huge houses so the are fair game just as any other Reality TV program. I'm not tippy toeing around them because they chose to put themselves out there.
DeleteThank you for that comment, insightful
DeleteAnonymous (who is not the same "Anonymous" as I am) -- That was a very thoughtful comment. Thank you for it. She Rah RahRah, I get that these women are on TV and making $ from that, etc. etc., but they are in SUCH an unhealthy dynamic that I feel as if when we say such cutting things about them, it's like kicking a dog when it's down.
DeleteAmon.3:40- Muslims practice polygamy.
ReplyDeleteI too read the book Escape by Carolyn Jessop and it was excellent. It was also set in Colorado City.
ReplyDelete@FT--I'm going to read that after I finish my current book.
DeleteJust going to comment on something on the show that bothers me.
The wives say they are in the lifestyle because "it makes each of us better." They have 5 kids going to college soon, plus 12 other young mouths to feed. Young kids that will need school supplies, tennis shoes, little league fees, ect. TLC money is supporting 4 separate households--4 water bills, 4 electric bills, 4 cable/internet bills, ect. Then, flash forward to Meri saying she doesn't need a 7 bedroom house but she deserves a house as big as the other wives + a deck + wet bar." Add in "I like nice things" and "I have expensive tastes." I was appalled at how selfish she was on TV, and can only imagine what she says and thinks in private. Especially, since her comments came after an admission by Christine that there were times she didn't have gas money to visit her Dad, and Janelle admitting there were times she was afraid she wouldn't have money to feed her six kids. We are seeing the bullying and manipulation that goes on among the wives. There's no Mother Teresa side to Meri. I don't see any of the "better" this lifestyle is suppose to bring out.
they think all they have to do is use words instead of actions. "it makes us better" SOUNDS great! but where's the actual ACTIVE RESULTS that it's made you better? we only see it goes from bad to worse w/this family. every. single. time. The teens themselves don't buy their parents' words anymore either. They want ACTION now. They're overly burned out on all the lack of "walking the talk" they've had to endure their whole lives.
DeleteThe sister wife relationship is another thing that seems unique to Mormon polyg. My understanding is that African, Muslim polyg doesn't have any requirement for the wives to work together.
DeleteAnon 4:14
ReplyDeleteI know a lot of muslims men and women and I can tell you that the men do not take wives they cannot afford. That seems to be one of tenets of their getting extra wives. Also, the added wives do not give them the extra closeness or added bonuses in the spirit world.
And She Rah…I agree that they put themselves out there and I am just as quick to critique their choice but I believe that it's one thing to critique them and an entirely other thing to just use this blog as a means to bully or make fun of them. While I agree that the realtionships are all one sided and unfair and nothing like monogamy, I think pointing out the flaws both character and physical of the wives puts this blog on the same level as their show.
Anon 4:14..
ReplyDeleteWhile it is true that some Muslims practice plyg, there are very strict rules that apply. For instance, the Prophet Mohammed only permitted plyg if and ONLY if the man can love and treat his wives equally. Plyg was practiced at the time of the Prophet because there was a lot of war, leaving a lot of widows with children, needing protection and support. Polygamy was never recommended in Islam, because it is impossible to love equally. However, some Cultures within the Muslim world still deem it acceptable, which it is not, really.
Polgy is mentioned in all religious texts. However the difference between Christianity, Islam and Judaism is that in the LDS world; it seems it's a ticket to the hereafter!
As a Muslim, I am taught not to judge other religious beliefs as we are all Gods people. I do however, look at Kody Brown as narcissist, an abuser (emotionally) and a scheister. And that's really what this blog is about.
Loveisblynde there are legitimate differences of opinion regarding polygamy in Islam; one very strong opinion of the majority of Islamic jurists past and present from various schools of thought is that polygamy IS a recommendation and a 'sunnah' in Islam for men who can afford it and treat their wives equally; for a minority of scholars for a man in such a position it is actually an obligation for him to enter into polygamy, although other scholars point out there is little evidence to point to this obligation.
ReplyDeleteSo to claim it isn't really 'recommended' or 'acceptable' isn't painting the full and accurate picture. This view of it being a recommendation is in various schools of thought from sufism through to salafism and even some shia scholars are strongly pro-polygamy in this regard. Majority of Muslims I have come across who are in a polygamous marriage are very moderate. When I was looking into Islam nearly two decades ago before I reverted, polygamy was a topic that really interested me so I really looked into it. Polygamy was historically practiced in many Muslim lands regardless of the socio-economic conditions (yes even when they were all rolling in it and doing well!) and no it wasn't just 'allowed' due to war, there being a lot of widows and orphans etc. This is just an apologist view without textual evidence.
If it was makruh [Islamic term for disliked but permissible]; then the early Muslims would not have participated in polygamy as surely it would have been something they looked to avoid? Even in those cultures where polygamy is seen as the norm though, in reality it is only a small minority of men practicing this, the myth of most Saudi or Arab men marrying the full gamut of 4 wives is just that, a myth. The idea of vast hoards of 'arrogant Arab men' looking to use polygamy as a tool to take over; is laughable. Muslim men who marry more than one will quite often marry a woman who doesn't want or who cannot have children and when it comes to polygamous Muslim families they tend to have less children overall than monogamous couples. It is also true that in Islam polygamy is more of a social allowance than a religious one and there are certainly many warnings for men who participate in it while not being fully emotionally, physically or financially equipped to do so. There is no concept of 'keep sweet' and if a man has to have his wives on welfare in order to participate in polygamy then this is not allowed. It isn't even allowed for him to ask his wife or wives to support the family in any way as her money is her property, but if she chooses to contribute she is of course, welcome to do so.
Please. We are talking about the "watch out for the Muslims, they're next" comment concerning Muslims in the US. It's fear mongering.
DeleteAlmost all religions practiced polygamy at one point (it's in the Bible), but we're discussing the USA in 2012.
I think it is extremely unwise to paint all Muslims (Arab or otherwise) with the same brush. In fact, reading the original comment, which brought Muslims into the discussion for no reason at all, made me angry and faintly sick.
DeleteI don't like the Wahabi regime of Saudi Arabia, but I don't like the extremes of the Bible Belt either. In a word, I don't like extremes. However, that's really not pertinent to this blog. We're talking about one family on TV and extend that discussion to Mormonism in all its forms at times. Surely that's a wide enough range of topic to avoid making unwarranted jabs at other religions.
I am currently undertaking a Master's degree in Religious Science (that name makes me giggle sometimes) and I have to say that Mormonism is the one religion I have no sympathy for. It is clearly made up, it is a celestial pyramid scheme and a cult. Having said that, it seems to produce very nice people, so for all my disdain of the 'religion', I find myself rather in awe of the practitioners.
Wait a second. If we are here to discuss the Brown family and can extend that discussion to all forms of Mormonism. Why would we not be able to also extend the discussion to all forms of polygamy? Why do Muslims get to be exempt?
Delete"Why would we not be able to also extend the discussion to all forms of polygamy?"
DeleteYou can. As stated in the SWB introduction, we discuss Polygamy in our society, and that would include any group/religion that practice it.
ALL religions are manmade. not just Mormonism. Jesus himself did not establish any religion and was actually against doing so. Christianity as a religion came long after he was long gone. He would not belong to it if he showed up today. ;')
DeleteYes, this! A thousand times, this!
DeleteAnd if anyone wants the textual evidences of the fact that polygamy is considered a recommended act in Islam I have several pieces of evidence from various Islamic schools of thought. I think its important to clear up this misconception because from my experience Muslims who enter into polygamy; regardless of how much they stick to the texts and do things completely by the book, often get treated badly by other Muslims and accused of doing something disliked in the religion. I know several Muslim ladies who entered into a polygamous lifestyle and has consequently been disowned by their friends and family, which is very very sad and completely wrong.
ReplyDeleteI really hope they are able to help the women and children there, my heart goes out to them.
ReplyDeleteThe original question was about the discrimination of non-FLDS by FLDS. Non-FLDS did not receive police protection and civil law protections regarding trespassing and fairness in business. The responses centered on Muslim and FLDS male allowances in taking multiple wives. Muslims in multiple situations apparently often have fewer children than if they were monogamous. FLDS was interested in having multiple children and collecting welfare but taking that money and using it to establish business, unfairly giving them advantage over non-FLDS, using for building and SUVs etc. There was reluctance to take away welfare benefits, although I don't know why since the children don't get the benefits anyway. Nothing really was said so far about the basic unfairness to women, children and men when polygamy is practiced. The ones who benefit are polygamous men, and no one else. Left to its own devices, only a few men can procreate. Societal unrest results. Children have no chance because they are taught only what the parents deem it allowed for them to learn. How about welfare for a short period of time, after which children are taken away if parents make no progress in providing for them. How about mandated schools, so that the children can learn what is going on in the real world. How about federal takeover of areas that do not respect the rights of the minority religion.
ReplyDeleteSorry to interrupt this love-fest for Islam, but their version of polygyny has just as many problems as those of the FLDS. I used to live near a Section 8 complex that was 95% Muslim. Turned out that these dozens of welfare moms were "wives" of just a few Muslim men, who rotated among their apartments, without the knowledge of welfare authorities. All of their food at the nearby grocery store was purchased with food stamps, and their medications at the pharmacy were bought with Medicaid cards.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know their food was bought with food "stamps" and "Medicaid cards"? I'm on Medicaid, and have used food "stamps" in the past. I never show my Medicaid card. Walgreens doesn't need to see it. It's in their computer. A food stamp card looks just like a Visa debit card. No one even knows you're on food stamps except the cashier.
DeleteI've been in line at the supermarket and you can tell when they're using food stamps. The card may look like any other debit, except the color, plus they press a different button on the machine. Everyone who's looking or paying attention knows. Also when I do HHC, the fact they're on medicaid is on every piece of their careplan and the paperwork I have to turn into the government. I've also seen people have to provide the medicaid card at CVS for certain medications.
DeleteMagic undies, while I think the restrictions Islam places on polyg make it better than flds, I agree that this may not always happen. I've heard ( but not seen) of Muslims thinking the flds is an example! Ick ick ick. I hope those women wise up and leave.
DeleteIn the state I live in, that same card has child support on it. So, a person would have no idea if a person was using state aid or legitimate child support. I actually think the "Debit card" system takes the shame out of food stamps/assistance and makes people more willing to abuse the system. I have a friend who HATES the system because she is afraid people will think she is using food stamps when it is actually her child support she is spending.
DeleteWow Kelly,
DeleteYou really shouldn't be so involved in trying to determine who is on social service programs and who isn't. I would never watch someone paying for his or her food.
anon 9:21 That may be the case in your state; it certainly isn't in Pennsylvania. Anyone in the store can clearly see the brightly colored card, with a huge logo--plus the cards are apparently VERY easily scratched, so frequently there is a huge, 5-10 production when they don't scan properly.
DeleteSometimes you can't help it. The line gets held up when things have to be held out because they don't qualify or the total has exceeded the amount on the card.
DeleteI have read multiple books on the foundations of Mormonism, both Carolyn Jessop books and watched probably every Dr. Phil episode on the subject. It all boils down to power. What the DOJ is doing is long overdue. I consider myself a Christian and I think the government should stay out of my personal beliefs, BUT what is happening in these towns is really not that different than what was happening in Afghanistan. Women have a dress code, they are property and a select few men determine what the rest of the town can and cannot do. It has been said before on this blog, I think, that when Warren Jeffs was in power, he ordered that all dogs be killed. Strangers cannot go through town without being followed by the police. And as much as we are talking about the abuse women experience, what about the "lost boys"??? Young men are considered a threat to the middle aged men, or even older, that want to marry underage girls. They are forced out of town without an education, with no money and no where to go! This is in America! The absolute worst part of it all is that we are paying for it! "Bleeding the Beast" is not just a snide comment, it is a way of life for them. I don't have a thirty second solution to this problem, but it is so much more insidious than I think a lot of people are aware. Kodouche is narcissistic, nasty and abusive, I have no doubt of that. I suppose compared to the men of the towns in question, he is "better"- you know like being married to Mike Tyson was better than being divorced from OJ Simpson, or Drew Peterson.
ReplyDeleteAmen!
DeleteInterestingly I watched a documentary yesterday on youtube, about colorado city in the warren jeffs years. However it clearly shows how corrupt the police are, they are polygamists themselves and play under one roof with the religious leaders. Heck, it even shows when girls run away b come and look for them.
ReplyDeleteHere is part : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ssYXu3qcS8
The video is part I (of 5 parts).
DeleteI correct: "when girls ru away, they (the police) come and look for them".
Why kill all the dogs? I haven't seen any pets in the brown family. Do they have any?
ReplyDeleteWarren Jeffs was obsessed with Hitler and he read every book that talked about how Hitler was able to control so many people who were against his politics. He learned that killing dogs was one way he could test to see how far the people would go to obey him. It worked…they either killed their dogs or they turned them into the pound. From killing dogs, he went to taking childen from one woman and giving them to other women; wives from men; and young boys from all families.
DeleteI believe Mariah had a dog, or did in the first episode or two..
DeleteThey originally left the pets in Utah but went to pick them up after a few weeks. I seem to recall (at least) two dogs and three cats, but haven't seen them in any of the Vegas episodes.
DeleteWarren Jeffs ordered the removal or killing of all dogs after a Rottweiler attacked a child. Carolyn Jessop talks about it in one of her books. Her family took their dogs to a shelter outside of the community, but the majority of dogs were rounded up and killed.
I saw a cat at Christine's and I also think Meri has a cat.
DeleteExcellent discussion from all angles and points of view.
ReplyDeleteSister Wives has unleashed curiosity and speculation about the entire plural marriage reality beyond just the identities and filmed activities of the Browns. The history and vivid evidence of this lifestyle is hard to defend or to promote on any level.
This particular thread is very consistent with SW Blog's stated mission and I, for one, really appreciate this fact.
One of the interesting aspects of Mormon history in our country is that the US is one the few English speaking country (established under British Common Law) that outright prohibits polygamists from emigrating to the United States. The laws in the UK, Canada and Australia, for instance, are much less clear. And it also true that this causes some consternation for some Islamic people who would like to emigrate here.
ReplyDeleteIt's also interesting to remember that in 1856, it was the "twin tyrannies" of slavery and polygamy that caused the Republican to be formed so it could abolish them.
Truth be told it does not "cause consternation" for those who would like to come here. A small percentage of Islamic men actually practice polygamy, to begin with; most Islamic men are not remotely interested in polygamy. Those who do practice polygamy can rarely afford to move their entire families to America--nor would most of them care to do so. They may be interested in bringing over a couple of adult sons, but that's usually about it. Those very few who are wealthy enough to do so are also well educated enough to manipulate the system--and are often buddy-buddy with politicians who cover for them, or find appeal to their own diplomats to extend diplomatic immunity to them (mainly Saudi, Emirate and Jordanian millionaires). Many "polygamous" men who emigrate here do it with the intention of locating and marrying an American for the green card. They just "swear" that they are not married when they enter the country, or if they forgot to do that, "swear" that they are divorced. These marriages are rarely considered permanent to those men, or they come back and forth to keep both households functioning. That is a frequent practice--actually more frequent among NON-Islamic immigrants. The American women who marry them often know full well what the situation is, and either believe they will choose life here--or just don't care about the weirdness. That being said, all immigrants to America must sign a sworn document that practicing polygamy is grounds for revocation of residency/citizenship, as well as grounds for deportation. As for poor African polygamists(many of whom are Christians or believers of Animist religions), they just do it, and take their chances. Those who fly under the radar are never investigated unless a compaint is made.
DeleteAnon 2:34 You are right that Christ would not follow Christianity because He is head of Christianity. Simple put as Christians that believe in Christianity we follow Him.
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion. I've enjoyed reading. Women and children are the losers in polygamy across the globe.
ReplyDeleteAnyone read "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Hosseini? Great book set in Afghanistan. It is fiction.
Kristie,
ReplyDeleteActually, Christianity came along so far after christ's death that I am sure it looks nor sounds like anything that he taught. In fact, if you really look at the christians from the middle ages up to now, it is nothing like his teachings.
DOJ! I can't imagine! More than thrilled. If they would THINK and do it right, they would probably clear out most of the officials, and make it safer for folks like Flora Jessop to get in and safe women and children.
ReplyDeletekristie - yes, but WHICH christian religion follows Christ? there's literally hundred of Christian-based religions that tout their particular flavor is the one that Christ wants you to follow. which one is correct? they can't all be as they can differ greatly in dogma. Mainstream Mormonism claims they are followers of Christ, too and that their path is the one true path back to Him. Yet, hundred of other Christ-based churches say Mainstream Mormons ARE NOT christians and are actually an evil cult leading you away from Christ.
ReplyDeleteSMH about them ALL as i think Christ is doing as well. lol
I am new to the blog and new to Polygamy. I do know what the FLDS is and this is where many of Jeffs' folks live, but am unsure of what they are saying in the article. Are they saying the FLDS Police are corrupt?
ReplyDeleteThey are saying the police and people involved in public services in the two towns, Colorado City, AZ and Hildale, UT have been extremely influenced by the FLDS sect.
DeleteIf you read Escape by Carolyn Jessop, you will get an inside look at the police force in the town of Colorado City. That was the main location the book was set in because at that time, her husband was the big cheese in that town.
Many times it was said in the book that there was no reason to call the police because at the time when she was considering escape, the police chief was an FLDS member. In fact, she was afraid that if she left, the police would be mobilized to search for her.
So while maybe not technically corrupt, the officials in the town ignore the needs of the citizens and do as the FLDS sect leaders would have them do.
Just my interpretation, obviously but I read the book and know many of the locations in the book, including the hotel that Carolyn's husband frequented with his favorite wife while his other wives and children were stuck at home, penniless and existing on tomato sandwiches because they had no other food. They could afford the tomato sandwiches because they grew the tomatoes and could bake the bread. Yet the husband and favorite wife were spending money in expensive hotel rooms not far from Colorado City and eating out at very nice restaurants. In fact, the manager of the hotel that was frequented was thrilled when she spotted my copy of the book and said, "I've been waiting for that to come out! I'm off to buy it when I get off work!"
Yes, many churches claim to be Christians but as a follower of Christ there are no comprising on the essentials, which are Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, He came to earth taking on the form of a man, born of a virgin, concieved by the Holy Sprit, died on the Cross and rose 3 days later. He is the second person of the Trinty. When you really talk and read on LDS they say they are not Christians and The Book of Mormons claim there is only 2 churches. The church of mormons and the church of satan. If they claim to you they are Christians they are doing it to try and fool you. Also , as Crhistians we belive every word of the Bible is true and inspired by God. Mormons don't believe this. Remember this is a religion based on a man and if you study it you will find The Book of Mormons as been re-wrote many times.
ReplyDeleteAMEN! So agree!
DeleteProof, please
DeleteThis could turn into a huge personally held dogma debate. not interested in going there personally. suffice it to say, not everyone believes that just because you CLAIM to KNOW your way is the one and only true way to believe in God doesn't make it so to others who likewise KNOW and believe differently. people have their BELIEFS but the bottom line is no one has proof of them. and saying the bible is proof doesn't mean a hill of beans to the equally heartfelt beliefs of other religions (christianity is a minority religion in the world btw) who DON'T believe in the bible at all.
Deletethis argument of whose religion is right and whose isn't is as old as time and has never been agreed upon worldwide. it's as polarizing as personal political beliefs and thus the old cliche of polite company never discusses religion and politics.
There has been 9 different versions of the Book of Mormons wrote by J. Smith himself. If Mormons are Christians then explain to me why they have no Cross in the temple, to be temple worthy is based on testimont of the Book of Mormons not the Bible, testimony to the LDS church,Tithes,obsy the word of wisdom ( thats is doctirne and covenats) interview with the bishop. That is just a few and no where in there is the Bible or Jesus mentioned.
DeletePlease remember that the full name of the Mormon church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
DeleteI am not Mormon, but I don't think your rhetoric against Mormons is particularly fair, nor is it based on facts.
Sorry Cynical didn't mean to step on toes but I have sat under several people that have study the religion for years and in great depth. My husbands family are also Mormons and I would not put anything that was not a fact.
DeleteAnd as I live in a state that has a large Mormon population, I have gone to school with, worked with, managed, and been friends with many Mormons. They are people...just like you and me. So let's stop the Mormon bashing here and now. If you want to discuss polygamy, and it's affect on society...great. But let's do so without the anti-Mormon rhetoric.
DeleteKristie,
DeleteSorry for the misunderstanding but how is it that you can prove that the bible is not based on the teachings of one or more men but you can prove that the book ov mormon is based upon the teaching of a man. Bashing other people's beliefs because they are not like your's does not make your's the one true religion. It only means you think it is true. And, the bible is not the inspired word of god or if it was, then there has been a whole lot added and a lot taken away…that explains why the Jewish folk have only a few books in the old testament, the catholic folk have a few added books in their bible, and then there's the other christian folk. I don't think you are I are in any position to denigrate other religions based upon how we interpret any spiritual text.
Mormons believe the bible is the word of God and actively study it both personally and at Sunday School.
ReplyDeleteThey may believe it is the word of God but they add and take away from it. Which we are warned not to do. They beleive Jesus is a prophet, the brother of satan. They also worship the man J.Smith. 2 of the 10 commandments. Worship no other Gods and do not make Idols.
ReplyDeleteI found some great posts on here, I can't remember where, but in early june, july 2011, that show the difference between Christianity and Morman (any type) and found in helpful.
Deleteso glad to see them take action, but will they follow through?
let's hope so for the sake of the women, children and lost boys who have no voice behind those walls.
DeleteThose below that say you are wrong, aren't in the FLDS or AUB or others, and YES, it was a part of it!
DeleteIf you think the bible hasn't been added and taken away from, you, then, have never studied the history of the bible. Believe me when I tell you that the bible you may read has been added to and had things taken away to the point that it looks very little like the dead sea scrolls. If you don't believe me, google it.
DeleteKristie, Mormons absolutely do NOT worship Joseph Smith. Mormons believe Jesus is the Savior and Messiah, the only way to be forgiven and return to Heaven.
ReplyDeleteIf I may offer a suggestion, have an open mind and go look at Mormon.org. But I am guessing your mind is already made up. That is ok. We each can have our opinions. Just like any AUB members lurking on here would be correcting our views I am sure. I probably have the same disgust for AUB and the FLDS that you do for Mormons. Unfortunately this board is FULL of LDS who think that polygamy is despicable. I understand why LDS is lumped together with the FLDS and AUB because the LDS obviously started it. But isn't this blog to discuss the here and now? To discuss the Browns and THEIR religion? It doesn't matter why, but the LDS do not support or believe in polygamy. Guess what, that is here and now. Again I understand they started it. So with that in mind, why do the Muslims get defended not the Mormons. I thought this blog was to discuss current polygamy, not theology. And, why do you have an open mind to all other religions except Mormonism. ( which by the way the true name is the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints). I think you are afraid that you might not find Mormonism as awful as you want to find it.
It is my understanding that current LDS do not adhere to polygamy now but do believe it will be practiced in the afterlife.
DeleteWhat year did it become "of Jesus Christ"?
DeleteThis is all very interesting, because the few Mormon friends I had growing up never called themselves Christians, and had no pictures of Jesus in their homes. Now, I see huge pictures of Jesus in Mormon homes. What caused this shift?
What year did it become "of Jesus Christ"?
DeleteThat occured 174 years ago in 1838.
This is from mormonthink.com:
The chronology of the name is:
1830: Church of Christ
1834: The Church of the Latter Day Saints
1838: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
(http://mormonthink.com/nameweb.htm)
Kristie, you are wrong about everything you have said about Mormons. (not to be rude)
ReplyDeleteHer comment on their belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers is correct. They believe we are ALL spirit siblings. I was reading a blog whose author is LDS and she referred to Easter as being the celebration of the "resurrection of my savior and brother."
DeleteI agree to disagree. Joseph Smith founded the church, and the FLDS and AUB maybe called Mormons. I know the LDS HATE that, but the truth is, Polygamy was a HUGE part of the LDS in the beginning, and FLDS and others have every right to be called Mormon, just as LDS have every right to be.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry you feel that I am wrong and I would really appreciate if you would tell me in what area I am wrong because I would be more than willing to go back and study that area some more.
ReplyDeleteAgree anon, That is why I said I understand why they are all lumped together. They all started in the same place. Mormonism. But the "facts" being stated about the LDS are untrue.
ReplyDeleteLet's get back to the topic! Tell us what you know about these cities and how they run VS religion
ReplyDeleteI found the posts listed and other posts helpful. What do folks know or have they been in these areas of Hilldale and Colorado City? Which Flora Jessop would get on here again!
ReplyDeleteChurch of Lies [Hardcover]
DeleteFlora Jessop (Author)
› Visit Amazon's Flora Jessop Page
Find all the books, read about the author, and more.
#34 new from $4.99
#44 used from $1.73
http://www.amazon.com/Church-Lies-Flora-Jessop/dp/0787994626
Anony 6:26 p.m. - actually this blog states ,"A year later, we not only discuss the show, we discuss Polygamy in our society, and the public perceptions of the Mormon religion."
ReplyDeleteThere are TONS of conversations here re: ALL things Mormon, FLDS , AUB, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Polygamy, etc.
and to be honest with you, i find mormonthink.com to be far more informative and balanced than mormon.org (the official mormon church website.) Mormonthink.com is written by a panel of 25 active mormons who lay it all out there - the good, the bad and the ugly re:their doctrines and true and unvarnished church history. they give the apologists view, the critics view and let you decide. they give tons of links to historical documentation as well. Mormon.org is lacking by far in comparison to what i've learned about mormonism on mormonthink.com.
Anyone interested there is a special on the BIO channel tonight: Warren Jeffs, A Fallen Prophet
ReplyDeleteYes Will be watching!
DeleteKristie, im the same anon...you are a class act. Thanks for the very civil and open minded discussion. It's refreshing. As for the question about the cities? My cousin is a baby nurse at the hospital closest to those cities. She said the babies are very unhealthy and they all look the same. They have a very inbred /sibling look. The mothers aren't allowed to name the babies. She said the nurses feign ignorance and ask evey time what the baby's name is, and every time the mother responds "father will name him". Because their family tree is so intertwined, there are tons of birth defects but they consider it an honor to have a disabled baby because they are worthy to care for such a special spirit. Although most, of the disabled babies receive no special medical care.
ReplyDeleteI've been all over and through that area as I mentioned earlier and I have to agree with what you posted Anon 6:57PM. The sad thing is, the families and community are so tightly controlled that nothing happens without a husband's permission, even taking an ill child to a doctor.
DeleteDiets are not the most nutritious because money isn't that plentiful and this often leads to the very underweight newborns that often have trouble thriving.
Schools that are there are heavily staff with FLDS teachers and because of this, a normal curriculum isn't taught. Mostly what is taught has been cherry-picked for aherence to FLDS beliefs.
I could carry on for a long while, but I'll hush and let others post.
one more thing about mormonthink.com They offer to change anything that anyone can show them that is NOT a true documented historical fact that they themselves factually w/documented and verifiable proof as true and correct information. the mormon.org does not give me anywhere close to the educational info that mormonthink.com does.
ReplyDeleteI was not bashing Mormons, as I have stated my husband family is mormons. They are very nice people with great family value and morales. I just staing the difference in Mormonism and Christianity.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the info on mormonthink.com. i will check it out.
ReplyDeleteAnony 6:57 said:
ReplyDeleteMy cousin is a baby nurse at the hospital closest to those cities. She said the babies are very unhealthy and they all look the same. They have a very inbred /sibling look. The mothers aren't allowed to name the babies. She said the nurses feign ignorance and ask evey time what the baby's name is, and every time the mother responds "father will name him". Because their family tree is so intertwined, there are tons of birth defects but they consider it an honor to have a disabled baby because they are worthy to care for such a special spirit. Although most, of the disabled babies receive no special medical care.
Check out this post on Hilldale Cemetery, and we will be having a follow up soon:
My cousin is a baby nurse at the hospital closest to those cities. She said the babies are very unhealthy and they all look the same. They have a very inbred /sibling look. The mothers aren't allowed to name the babies. She said the nurses feign ignorance and ask evey time what the baby's name is, and every time the mother responds "father will name him". Because their family tree is so intertwined, there are tons of birth defects but they consider it an honor to have a disabled baby because they are worthy to care for such a special spirit. Although most, of the disabled babies receive no special medical care.
We Have to very interesting article on baby deaths in Hildale, Utah by K. Dee Ignatin, and are going to have an interesting followup soon.
http://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/polygamists-cemetery-why-are-so-many.html
WHEN POSTING:
ReplyDeleteDO NOT ATTACK OTHER POSTERS. YOU MAY AGREE TO DISAGREE, and state your case saying you have another point of view. This is getting too harsh and off topic.
Hildale and Colorado City, is the majority FLDS, or are their other polgamist based religions there?
ReplyDeleteIt's mostly FLDS. The AUB split off in '54 and moved to Bluffdale, UT. Some 'apostates' refuse to leave when kicked out and there are some few non-FLDS residents, it would seem.
DeleteI just watched the Channel 4(UK) documentary 'The Man With 80 Wives' about Warren Jeffs. It's a few years old. It mentions that the twin towns have about 10,000 residents but only 12 different surnames.
Let's see: Barlow, Blackmore, Chatwyn, Fischer, Holm, Johnson, Jeffs, Jessop, Mackert, Keate, Steed. I'm clearly missing one. Can any insider tell me if I'm on the right track with these names? Also, would anyone be able to suggest the last name? I didn't include 'Allred', as I think most of them are in the AUB.
There are also: Allreds, Drapers, Nielsons, Waymans, Cooks, Dutsons, Emack, Timpsons, Rickerts, Knudsons (all of these names and those already mentioned also occur several times on the Utah sex offender registry, BTW).
DeleteThanks. I looked again and found a senior official by the name of Darger, too. Hmmmm.
DeleteBiography Channel, tonight, check your listings.
ReplyDelete"Warren Jeffs, Fallen Prophet" I encourage you folks to watch this. We might learn more about FLDS.
Mormons consider themselves Christian Because they define Christian as salvation through Jesus. They know they do not adhere to traditional Christian theology.
ReplyDeleteIt's mostly FLDS. I can't wait to watch the show tonight!
ReplyDeleteIf this conversation were happening in person, I'd be very uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI really didn't mean to make anyone uncomfortable. I have had these same conversations face to face as well. Never any hard feelings here.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThere are good and bad in every religion. However, in this day and age, with America being free, these abused women don't know about the outside world. Thank god for those like Flora Jessop who get them out. It's hard to fathom Warren Jeffs could reek the havoc he did in 4 years of being prophet. 4 years before he was arrested, and ammased over 100 million from the sheeple.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I do not believe the faith at all, but can symathize with the folks who were brought up in it, then have to turn around and unvalidate their whole existance to get out. Sad. He was one evil evil man, but, the whole thing is evil from the top of the group.
Great show! If you missed it, I would catch it in re runs.
@RobynsCold;
DeleteThe first time I saw your user ID on here, I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants. It still cracks me up every time I see it. I wish I had thought of it first.
If you look, The mods have given some room, some weren't used to what we do here, and were very nice and asked for options to read. I think it's great when you can disagree, and learn from each other. Just remember, as I have the mods will get on you if you don't simply say something like, Here's my point of view, or I agree to disagree, I saw that alot in the beginning of the blog. Interesting conversation.
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to see what comes of this. Will they clean it up?
ReplyDeleteThink about this.Can you imagine living there and not being in their religion?
You'd be the one getting the speeding tickets.
I just don't understand why they don't get arrested for being polygamists. It's against the law. If I break a law, I would be arrested.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Hey, I have friends that have RA and would love to smoke a doobie. But it's against the law.
DeleteBut these groups of Polygamy abuse and abuse, and get away with it.
Why isn't Kody arrested for being a polygamist? I pray the DOJ do thier job and clean up these cities where it is right and fair for all. Why should law abiding citizen fear discrimination from a illegal group?
Kristie, you didn't make me uncomfortable. Sorry to make you think as much.
DeleteI enjoy this blog but truthfully sometimes it goes off on a tangent and has nothing to do with SISTER WIVES TV program. I know I can choose to participate or not but I like this blog however bickering over religion or reminding the readers of what was done to the women by other polygamist clans is either old news or unrelated.If the Brown clan was way off the map with flagrant abuse other than the passive abuse inherent in the way he treats the ladies TLC would not do a program like this one. .I hope we can keep it directed at the TV program which is entertainment although they do make the news often, and not attack one another because we come from a different perspective or have a different opinion...Reality shows are plentiful because they are cheap to produce and make the networks alot of money...Dance Moms brings in multi millions in advertisement and some people watch for the dancing and some for the Dance Mom's dynamics. Keep new news coming..I would appreciate an update on the 4 houses because we know TLC time and our time are out of synch. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteStix16,
DeleteI think to project that SWB is just to critique and have fun at the Brown's expense the SW show would be to really narrow this blog down to a television show critique only. While it is nice to have a "real" polyg family on TLC for us to analyze, the truth is, most of us are more interested in the broad sense of the term SW. Meaning, we are all interested in all of those ideas about SW with the Browns as well as SW with the AUB and FDLS communities. When I come up on a topic that doesn't interest me, I don't read it. Maybe you could do the same. It isn't like the blog hosts are our slaves for us to demand they do this and that. In my experience, when blog hosts begin listening to the readers and try to mold the blog to one particular reader or another, the blog quickly dies.
The mission of this blog (c&p'd from the top of the page):
Delete"In 2011, the Sister Wives Blog started out as a place to talk about the TLC reality show "Sister Wives", Kody Brown and his wives Christine, Robyn, Meri and Janelle. A year later, we not only discuss the show, we discuss Polygamy in our society, and the public perceptions of the Mormon religion. This blog is geared towards the adult reader, so please, no one under the age of 18 years. Thank you!"
I don't want to attempt to answer for the blog administration, but I understand that they started this blog specifically because the Without Pity blog was so limited in its scope (it is limited to only discussion of the TV program). The TWoP blogs are all post after post of the same exact sentiment, with no room for discussion, asking general questions, or adding annecdotes.
The backstory of this show's family IS the entire history of Mormonism, and their relationships to the LDS and other fundie groups; the numerous, frequent schisms of the religious movement set the stage for everything this family does. I agree that the tangential conversations get carried away (often by myself), but that's why I love this blog and never read the others more than once or twice. As long as there is mutual interest by the majority of readers (which there apparently is), I applaud the moderators. Maybe if you want more "meat", related to the TV show, read what you want here, then check out the SWWoP. It's a good blog, for show specifics.
I disagree strongly. To understand the Browns and what the future holds, you must look backwards at the religion. ALL of them but Janelle go straight back to Joseph Smith. The are very narcissistic folks and think they are above the laws we follow.I think sometimes we have to separate the fact from fiction, and from I have watched, the moderators here don't let it go on too long. In fact, the gal that everyone disagreed with yesterday asked for website to find the truth. Isn't that what we all want? I know how these groups work, trust me, and many in the group are my friends. But guess what? THEY don't even know all this!!!!!!! I have read for a long time, and never posted. But to me, you are griping about the moderators, and that is not right. I think some are trying to learn and it's all so bizarre, its hard to know which is exactly right when bringing up topics. And the LDS want to get on here and rant that polygamists aren't Mormon's. i see and appreciate their point, but disagree, really they are the true ones in my book.
ReplyDeleteSometimes a healthy disagreement leads to education...It's called Debate.
And Thanks to all the moderators that put up with all of us. You are serving a purpose you may not even be aware of.
I agree totally.
DeleteFirst, many are just now learning.
Second, they can't fit just one persons needs.
For example, I like the reviews because sometimes I work and miss the show.
My sister likes the earlier ones with less review and more snark.
So whom should they "fit" the blog to please?
Well put Gladys 72, but I understand your personal feelings Stix.
It's for all, and i love this blog!
Pardon my stupidity, but I still do not understand what it means to have the DOJ come in? What exactly will they do?
DeleteWe need to learn the FLDS, they are essentially what Joseph Smith set up, am I right? The LDS, similar and had the famous Brigham Young and his 70 wives, but denounced polygamy when it became illegal and they were on to them (not sure which).
ReplyDeleteAUB says they don't take underage brides, but even Christine's forefathers sure did.
To connect to the Browns - this is the place where they learned all the fraud.
It wasn't that far back. Christine's grandfather Rulon Allred certainly "married" two fifteen year old girls, and Cosmo (he posts here sometimes) says that his AUB dad who was in his forties got "married to a very young girl - about 16, I believe, and that was not all that long ago.
Delete"Banking on Heaven"
ReplyDeletehttp://bankingonheaven.com/
The trailor for this DVD is about the FLDS compounds of Hildal/Colorado City.
This trailor shines bit of light on that red-road prison.
Las Vegas and the Kody Brown family are just ONE hour from (FLDS) Colorado City (formerly Short Creek), where the Barlows and Jessups continue inbreeding.
***
Note re. Hildale Police
In 2003 the entire Hildale force (of *five* troopers :) was temporarily suspended-- something to do with completing training. Interesting that all five (count 'em *5* :-) were FLDS.
www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy124.html
"A former sworn Hildale officer, Rodney Holm, is on trial this week in St. George on charges of bigamy and unlawful sexual activity"
A GREAT post to define Mormon and Fundamentalist.
ReplyDeletehttp://sisterwivesblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/polygamy-and-mormon-fundamentalist.html
If you want to know the history of Colorado City and the FLDS, I recommend reading The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona by Benjamin G. Bistline. It's a very good book and I found it very informative about the FLDS.
ReplyDeleteI will get that at the library, I am interested in all this. i had no idea until this show that it was as messy as it was. I mean we've all heard of Warren Jeffs, but I still am amazed at the corruption.
Deletehere's a really good one i watched for free online.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/filmedia/play/4688/Damned-to-Heaven
We will have to wait and see if anything is really done. So often, you see these headlines, then it just disappears.
ReplyDeleteGood!
ReplyDeleteThank you for all these! Time to catch up.
ReplyDeleteThis brings interest with the above new post./
ReplyDeleteGuys! I found a more in depth article about the FLDS and DOJ.
ReplyDeletePRESCOTT, Ariz. - The Justice Department has set its sights on two small towns along the Arizona-Utah border, claiming that Mormon fundamentalists and their jailed leader control the area's police force and ostracize nonmembers.
The twin towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, have long been a haven for members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a polygamy-practicing breakaway sect. The church's United Effort Plan (UEP) owns most of the property in the communities, and outsiders are not exactly encouraged to move in. The tiny, rural communities have also been a longstanding target of their respective states, and the federal government.
In a recent lawsuit, the Justice Department claims that the towns' municipal government, police force and utility companies are de facto arms of the church. Members of the towns' police force, called the Marshal's Office, arrest non-FLDS members without probable cause and refuse to help excommunicated women leave the community with their children, the lawsuit states.
"The Marshal's Office fails to protect non-FLDS individuals from victimization by FLDS members, fails to investigate crimes against non-FLDS individuals and their property, and refuses to arrest FLDS individuals who have committed crimes against non-FLDS individuals," the lawsuit claims. "These crimes and actions include destroying crops on a non-FLDS-operated farm, vandalizing property in the control of the UEP Trust, returning at least one underage bride to a home from which she had fled, and trespassing on property occupied by non-FLDS individuals."
Read the rest here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/26/47816.htm
It is insulting to say that the FLDS is like the Amish. I live in Amish country. They mind their own business, do not quarrel, do not abuse any POWER, and in general very nice people. Good, it sounds like they have a much bigger case in this article.
DeleteI mean the FLDS were comparing themselves to them, sounds like the DOJ is AFTER them!
DeleteIs that a picture of Warren Jeffs? Man!!! Prison life must really be hard for him. Good!!!
ReplyDeleteUpdate on this story: For the Kids - Colorado City Now Has Cops That Enforce Arizona Laws Instead of a Child Rapist's Laws
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/colorado_city_now_has_cops_tha.php