Rebecca Kimbel interviews Ed Kociela, who explains Warren Jeff's powerful hold on his followers and the injustices he demands of them by way of the telephone in his prison cell. Obedient, his followers remain prisoners of the mind and accept the destruction of their families and their capacity to choose for themselves they remain enslaved in polygamy.
Thank you, Rebecca Kimbel and Ed Kociela.
ReplyDeleteThis candid view of polygamy as it still is today is a needed FYI for American society at large. It is beyond comprehension that Warren Jeffs can continue to hold these people mentally and emotionally hostage from a prison cell. But he does ...and he is. Bless you both for continuing to inform the world.
Rebecca, your questions for Ed were so clear, so pointedly precise. SO real !!
Ed, your answers and explanations were equally razor sharp and refreshingly factual.
I am glad you openly addressed Kody Brown and the show as an example of the fluff and manipulation of truth. I am glad you label the SisterWives show as a scam. And also that you describe Kody Brown as a hypocrite and liar.
The show IS a big money-making *scam* for TLC and certainly for Kody and Co.
Kody (and his wife and three mistresses) ARE liars and hypocrites.
That observation is what prompted me during the show's first season to go online and search to see if others saw that too. SWB was the haven.
About your wish to confront Kody.....
I would love to see you go head to head with Kody Brown in a civil but un-scripted, non-directed, un-edited and *real* discussion about his version of polygamy, his familial contacts with those who may be hard-core plygs...and as a taxpayer, the truth about their "bleeding of the beast."
Thanks again to you both !
And thanks, MS, for posting it. Hope you are well.
Regarding a head to head between Ed and Kody Brown, Ed would chew him up and spit him out with one arm tied behind his back.
DeleteTHAT would be ENTERTAINMENT!
Hello Amused,
DeleteThank you. I would seriously doubt that Kody Brown would be interested in a genuine face-to-face with a neutral interviewer who wouldn't lob him softball questions. I would just about guarantee that TLC would not allow it anyway.
I am not a fan of the so-called "reality show" genre. Well...I must confess a weakness for "Pawn Stars!") But, that's an entirely different kind of thing and isn't causing harm to children or taxing the welfare system.
It was a real pleasure getting to work with Rebecca and visit with her after conversing via email and telephone for some time. She is an energetic woman, passionate about getting the facts about modern-day polygamy out into the open.
Very interesting! Ed, you have a wonderful voice. It's a shame you deal mostly in print. Thanks to you and Rebecca for your dedication to getting the information out to the public and helping the helpless.
ReplyDeleteHello Malamom,
DeleteI don't know about the voice thing, but thank you. It was a wonderful experience working with Rebecca and I hope we provided some good answers.
This is such a great, informative post that really synthesizes the main ideas of the different fundamentalist groups operating in Western North America. Thanks to Rebecca Kimbel, Ed (you are such a rock star, dude), and Mister Sister.
ReplyDeleteI have learned so much about polygamy since the beginning of this past summer, and have been propelled to do so in large part by this blog. The information from the blog itself as well as book recommendations have proven invaluable. Before that my experience with polygamy was through "Big Love" and "Sister Wives". Now I definitely DO NOT find polygamy entertaining.
This blog does a great service in exposing polygamy to the public.
Honestly, I'm a born and bred New Englander, and when I first saw "Big Love", I found it hard to believe that anyone actually practiced polygamy anymore in this country.
Now I know better, and I hope the same for the rest of the plyg-show enthusiasts.
Hello BB,
DeleteThanks for "getting it." One of the most important points we try to make is that real-world polygamy is not "Big Love" of "Sister Wives." As we say, it is all about the context of polygamy and is much deeper and more complicated than it seems on the surface.
Again we hear of Kody Brown's familial ties to the AUB. Yet he claims he explored polygay with his parents as a young adult. It may be true that his parents did not have a plural marriage until that time. However, as this woman pointed out she shares a grandparent with Kody and she was raised in the A"UB polygamy culture. her discussion of the abuses in the AUB sound all too familiar. This polygamous life was all around Kody as he grew up. He is not being honest with the world. Neither is Christine when she declares "I never knew men could be such ....."
ReplyDeleteSharing a grandparent makes her Kody's second cousin. I wish I knew why most of these people are born without birth defects, since they are all closely related to each other! Does that mean that polygamy will eventually breed itself out of existence? A few more generations and the fetuses won't even be viable any more.
DeleteHello Forest Rose,
DeleteWell, that's the point I was trying to make: you never really know where Kody and the group stand. You never have any doubt with Rebecca. She puts it right out there, for better or worse. A brutally honest, gutsy woman.
Hello Anon,
DeleteJust about everybody in Short Creek, which is what they call the community of Colorado City and Hildale, has a link to one of the three families that settled the area. There is also a high incidence of fumarese deficiency. Fumarase deficiency causes encephalopathy, severe mental retardation, unusual facial features, brain malformation, and epileptic seizures. Until 1990, there were only 13 cases of the disease, which is caused by generations of inbreeding, reported worldwide. Since then, however, there have been 20 reported cases in Short Creek, a disturbingly high number for such a small community.
Actually sharing a grandparent makes her a first cousin.
DeleteEd, what happens to these children? Do they put them in institutions, do they stay with the family, or is that why there are so many deaths of babies and children in these communities?
DeleteHello Sissey,
DeleteThe children stay with the families.
There is a, seemingly, high incidence of infant deaths in the community. In fact, there is a cemetery where they are buried.
As in any rural community, there will be a higher death rate among children, from illness to accidents. But, we also know that the numbers of fumarese deficiency are so high when compared with the rest of the world, that there has to be a correlation in higher infant deaths. It is sad.
Throughout most of the world, marrying first cousins is extremely common practice. It is unlikelyvthat this population would die out from it.
DeleteAll of Kody's great grandparents were polygamists. Allred, Brown are the two big names that came up on the blog before. they were no strangers to it, however, did not live it. Kody may have that as a bad spot. Sure doesn't make him a knowledgeable polygamist husband! At least Joe Darger lived it.
DeleteVery insightful interview. Thanks for posting it.
ReplyDeleteEd hit the nail on the head when he went into how Warren Jeffs holds that he is god's [the Mormon god is a man who became a god who lives on a planet called Kolab, not the God of the Bible] representative on earth, and as such, holds the power of life and death over his followers. I don't think outsiders can understand why people submit to polygamy and it's related abuses without understanding that it's commanded in their scripture, Doctrines and Covenants section 132, and it's required for salvation. It isnt' optional as they discussed.
The other thing that compells women to submit to this is the Mormon doctrine of the man being what they call the 'priesthood holder.' A boy becomes a member of the Aaronic priesthood at age 8, and a member of the Melchizadek priesthood in his late teens. For those of you who know your Bibles, you'll remember that the Old Testament priesthood is the Levitical priesthood, not the Aaronic priesthood that Joseph Smith dreamed up. The man has absolute control over his wife including the ability to resurrect her in the celestial kingdom as his wife if she pleases him. This is why the women are so willing to endure whatever their husbands dish out to them in this life as they don't want to lose out on eternal life.
So long as the heretic doctrines taught by Joseph Smith hold women captive to their husbands, they'll willingly endure whatever abuse they have to in order to achieve salvation.
Hello Hayley,
DeleteAll true. It also goes much farther. The indoctrination begins at an early age and not only brainwashes the girls, but boys as well. We know a young man who was kicked out of the community before he was 18. He had little education and was raised in customary FLDS style. He knows little of beauty and the world is very new, real, and, in some instances, very harsh with overwhelming fears that counter his new discoveries. When the Boston Marathon bombing took place he was petrified that a Warren Jeffs prophecy was taking place. 'He (Jeffs) said there would be explosions and blood in the streets and that it would signal that the walls of his prison were melting so he could get away,' the young man said. 'Is it true?' It took some time to calm his frayed nerves and convince him that Jeffs was still securely imprisoned. I hope that is a reasonable explanation of the far-reaching evils and influence that man has over his followers.
That poor 15 year old. :(
ReplyDeleteAppreciate the way Ed and Rebecca are keeping these important issues to the fore. Just one comment about "trading" girls and women between groups. In my experience, most groups today are very possessive of their women and don't like them being married off elsewhere. AUB for instance, didn't like independent polygamists attending AUB dances and "poaching" girls. As a result AUB leaders instituted a recommend system, so that no one could attend social events without having been interviewed and being give a signed document that had to be produced at the door. Much of the "trading" of girls has been within the FLDS, where girls have been sent off to places in Canada, Utah, Colorado, Texas, Arizona etc. where there are pockets of FLDS living. No way they would want outsiders getting access to such a valuable resource! Not to say that special agreements aren't made between individuals in competing groups, but not something their leaders would like at all. The Independents like Joe Darger are the only ones that don't care where their daughters end up, since they don't believe any group has particular merit in terms of "authority."
ReplyDeleteHello ex-AUB,
DeleteI understand that the groups don't like poaching, however, from what I have learned, the leaders of the various groups have become economically dependent upon each other. They all have their own businesses and work with each other to earn more money. And, as part of the deal, as I understand, young girls are also a part of the deal. I know it sounds sick, but the leaders are just as apt to trade girls as they are to award business to each other. You are right, however, in saying that the overwhelming movement of girls is within the FLDS. Canadian authorities, as a matter of fact, are investigating the group for bringing girls across the border to be married off into polygamy. The Kingstons, as I understand, are also involved in sending young girls across the border.
To all of our SWB friends:
ReplyDeleteI hope you find the interview posted here enlightening and informative. There is a greater purpose to all of this than simply looking at the ins and outs of a TV show. Yes, it may be fun to get snarky and make fun of Kody and the women, but beneath it all there is a much deeper, darker context.
I hope you enjoy the show and continue to have your community meetings here. This is a great blog!
But, I also hope you all understand that beyond this show, there is a much larger storyline.
Ed, when I first began watching the show it was just that, an entertaining production that I could laugh about with a few friends. Now, it is so much more. I want to learn about this religion because it disgusts me and yes, even frightens me. There is so much more to this than meets the eye. I have come to care about the older Brown children. This also frightens me.
DeleteHello Forest Rose,
DeleteI understand. So much of real life can be frightening. The saddest part of this is that these people are held captive for fear of their everlasting salvation. How horrible.
Absolutely agree! I do think that some of Kody's behavior the show depicted last season, for example his anger at his perceived lack of support at the panel discussion, and some of his nasty tweets, show that while they may initially have had overwhelming support for their "lifestyle choice," that the support may have begun to wane a bit based on the efforts of survivors, people like Ed Kociela, and this blog getting the word out that they are omitting BiG pieces of the puzzle. He's not the love able aw shucks country boy he starte out as - the facade is crumbling.
DeleteHello Anon,
DeleteHaving seen the show with the panel "discussion," if you will, I find it hard to find credibility in Kody Brown saying he lacked support. From where I sit, it looked as if the network, TLC, bent over backwards to accommodate his point of view.
I think the more exposure a TV personality receives, the more the shine is dulled. Over-exposure tends to reveal more negative personality traits and patterns than limited exposure, so in that regard, Kody Brown could be his own undoing. In other words, the more time he spends on TV, the more viewers learn about him and can discern about his personality.
Indeed, the facade appears to be crumbling.
Thanks for posting the interview Mister Sister. Ed and Rebecca, thank you for the information. I also see a hateful, demanding God that the polygamists worship...why work so hard to live eternity with an abusive heavenly father in a cycle of crimes against women, children and people of color?
ReplyDeleteDarlene
Hello Anon,
DeleteThere have been, are and always will be horrors committed in the name of religion. We see it all the time. Peace, love and charity seem to be very rare, but precious, commodities these days.
Good interview. The facts about how much tax payer money the FLDS absorbs is astounding. I just wonder why the prison can't find some infraction to use as a reason to take away Warren Jeff's phone privileges or at least release his abusive edicts to the media to further expose him. It makes one wonder how many tax dollars the AUB and other polygamous communities are collecting. The Brown's were bleeding the beast before TLC came along. P.S. My parents really miss The Herald Examiner.
ReplyDeleteHello M.A.,
DeleteFirst of all, I, too, really miss the Herald Examiner. It was a lively newspaper. We worked hard, but loved every ,moment of it and tried our best to give readers an interesting report every day. I started as a sports reporter there and our editor, a tough-as-nails guy named Bud Furillo, would challenge us with this: 'Make 'em wonder what we're up to every morning.' He, and then his successor, Alan Malamud, taught us so much. We were a very aggressive, wild, and energetic bunch and I'd like to think we did good work.
As far as the taxpayer end of this polygamy debacle is concerned, I don't understand it all, either. I realize prisoners have certain rights to access of communications devices, but I also understand Warren has had ample access to a telephone and laptop, which we see he has used to remain in control of his followers.
Thank you Ed & Rebecca for posting this interview. Ed you are very smart, calm and well spoken. You have a nice voice to listen to. You and Doris Hanson share that same wit - being able to say that Kody B is a liar, cheat, fraud and a crook without actually saying it and remaining classy. You should be working together!
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately this is not just a tv show to snark at, this is so much worse. The amount of $$$ that gets poored into colorado city is amazing. It is so sad. They all seem to suffer such a great deal and so little people seem to care - heck even local law "enforcement" doesn't care. The media (generally) doesn't care. I feel for all these women and children. I often pray for them, for their torture to end.
Why does WJ still have communication privileges? From reading Flora Jessop's book (church of lies) and from other sources it is clear that even before he took over he was a sadistic, sexually perverted sociopath. When he took over - he for sure knew he was just playing and by no means was seriously heavenly inspired. I wonder if he still knows the difference between truth and fiction? Anyway, I think he should live in isolation, for the worst that has happened to his followers happened from behind bars. Are the children still eating beans & water twice a day?
Thank you Ed, Rebecca and everyone for their continued efforts.
Hello Lobotomized,
DeleteThank you for your kind words.
I agree that this is something much more than just a TV show. It pulls back the first layer of polygamy and begins exposing the underlying dangers by making viewers curious for more information.
Local law enforcement is under the influence of Warren Jeffs. The media does not fully comprehend the situation, danger, and criminality. It takes a lot of time to develop this information and, quite frankly, the media just isn't capable, for the most part, or interested in such in-depth pursuits.
Does Warren know the difference between reality and the world he lives in? Well, he certainly has a bit of a messianic complex, but even people with that delusion have a tie to reality, even if it is tenuous. And, we have seen quotes from him where he has said "If they knew what I was doing they'd hang me."
Why does he go with so little supervision? Great question. Wish I had an answer. My usual reply to that sort of thing is "follow the money."
Finally, as far as the kids in Short Creek, I have not heard that the beans and water diet has been rescinded.
This was a super cool interview for me as I recently finished "Plygs." I have rarely had the opportunity "to know" or to see the authors of fiction I read (all dead!), so it's interesting to see the motivation behind the book in 3D YouTube gory detail.
ReplyDeleteWhat sunk into me from the book that I heretofore did not realize was how completely wackadoodle (pardon non-scientific term) you can grow a human if you get your claws into the child at and early age and keep her or him isolated from moderating influences. I understood that women (particularly with a gaggle of children) were physically unable to escape, but I didn't know that they were so bound mentally. It is indeed a scary concept that an adult with a brain just like mine could be trained from an early age to think so differently.
I am currently working in the Middle East. When I arrived, I couldn't understand why whole societies here appear to value senseless violence, spending fortunes in money on trying to maim and hurt others instead of, say, sewage treatment, which is hardly a "Western" value, it just seemed like common sense. It appears to me that children are taught and witness brutal violence and hate from an early age, and have little outside moderating influence. I have not with rare frequency seen men and children in public doing the most horrifically cruel things to innocent animals in "fun" and I can barely stand it without going insane but here it is normal.
All this to say, I enjoyed "Plygs" very much. I would read a sequel or prequel if there were one. I enjoyed how the frame of reference gets passed around (like in my fave, "Sound and the Fury"). My question is: can someone who has been programmed since the cradle be convinced to see things differently? Can a woman, say, of 55 or 60 years ever escape the FLDS mindset?
Hello Anon,
DeleteThank you so much for your kind words. Writing 'plygs' was truly an emotional exercise. And, there will be a sequel to the book that will follow up on the main characters and what ensues. My wife and I are planning to return to Mexico in the spring so I can get it all together. It's where I wrote 'plygs' and want to settle.
Your question is one that is intriguing to not only a lay person like me, but to those who study human nature.
I can, however, say that I know of several women who have escaped from polygamy. There are, I think, parts of it that never go away, constant reminders of the lives and abuses they endured in the pursuit of their eternal salvation. Stop and think a moment. What would it take you to disassociate yourself from all that you had been raised to believe, to separate yourself from the environment in which you were raised, to leave your family behind, not knowing if you would ever see them again. Those are some very difficult things to overcome. I think, no matter how long they are away from it, bits linger, doubts about their removing themselves from it arise on occasion and there is a lot of second-guessing.
I've read several of the survivors's books, and I have to wonder if the FLDS still has any government contracts (defense or otherwise)? The government contracts with the FLDS because it's cheap; it's cheap because they basically use slave labor; the government has reason to know based on the Warren Jeff's situation and multiple eyewitness accounts that there are terrible abuses occurring; BUT leaves the FLDS alone because they are free to practice their religion or..... Is it something else?
ReplyDeleteHello Anon,
DeleteI do not believe the metal shop has any ongoing contracts at the moment. That doesn't mean they won't do business with the government in the future.
Look, it's always about the money. Unless there is some huge scandal with the company the government is doing business with, the feds are unlikely to poke around much. Of course there are inspections, etc., but those are usually scheduled, so the kids are sent home.
As far as turning a blind eye because of religious freedom, well, polygamy is against federal law.
Thank you for the informative interview. I always auspected that Kody was more involved with the cult than he lets on.
ReplyDeleteA bit off topic, but I regularly receive what I call "more threats from Warren Jeffs" at work - a large firm law library - which he calls "Revelations." They are about one or two pages long. These revelations do not seem to be instructions for day to day living like the dietary mandates mentioned by Mr Kociela, but rather sweeping warnings of doom to everyone from Albanians to Zambians and birth control providers.
Unless they are written in some code that I have been unable to crack, it seems that God speaks with the grammar and syntax of Yoda on "crack." Who knew?
Also, they are usually countersigned by Nathan C. Jessop (?) and always come with a price list.
Hello Anon,
DeleteYes, Warren Jeffs continues to issue his edicts from prison and they are pretty wide ranging. He seems to have several levels for his discourse -- followers, those associated with the law, and the general public. Hey, what else does he have to do?
Really interesting to see and hear someone speak very rationally and evenly about a difficult topic. I would love to see the Browns on stage with Ed. His calmness might actually break through their brittle white knuckled grip on their cult attitudes.
ReplyDeleteHello Anon,
DeleteThank you. Yes, it is a difficult topic, but one that needs addressing. And, you are right, this is very much a cult.
I think he should be the little man in prison. Have some bif bubbas black & white & pound it up his a$$ everyday so he don't forget it. Remember what the children went thru boys & girls
ReplyDeleteEd, I love you posts, but sometimes i'd like to see more humor from you. maybe when the new show Beaking the Faith comes on, you could write a post from a humorous, snarky standpoint?
ReplyDeleteLove you Ed! hope you write more for us here soon!!
ReplyDelete